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As De Mee came out 10 lengths clear on my interpretation! Also considered Henryville e/w but his hold up style in the conditions will probably preclude him winning.
Well done Golden.
Thanks Ginger, you were right about Seefood – jumped well and handled the Class – so one to remain interested in.
Oh well, onto Kelso & Huntingdon https://theracingforum.co.uk/wp-content/plugins/wp-monalisa/icons/wpml_yes.gif
Well, it WAS very tight. Disaster for me with Saint Are falling & effectively bringing down Ziga Boy at 1st! Vieux Lion Rouge was my third choice but unbacked!! Not convinced he will stay in the National though. Going may have been a tad softer than anticipated but a remarkable effort by Highland Lodge nevertheless, a real specialist – the handicapper must ensure he gets in GN. We may not see either the 1st or 2nd until GN. Thought The Last Samuri might need but will be too exposed at the weights to better a place in the big one. Eye-opening run by One For Arthur. Ucello Conti: right trip, needs Soft/Heavy. Viconte Du Noyer: doesn’t appear to stay the trip after all or now running at 3+ may need plenty of time between races? The Young Master: forget for GN, was, said trainer, going to be looked after but didn’t appear to take to course which accentuated his jumping frailties. Finally, Silvergrove – stable form is not convincing but is not a Class 1 horse, needs to be able to dominate in a lower Class.
Agree with a lot you say Ginger. Poor run last time by Vintage Vinnie too and Astracad needs genuine Good. Not the strongest Class 2 but worry about Class for Seefood & Troika Steppes, also the latter’s jumping too and Troika may need more of a test/further as may Valadom!
Very tight. Ziga Boy & Saint Are both e/w for me with dangers Vieux Lion Rouge, Viconte Du Noyer, Rogue Angel & Sizing Coal in that order!!
As De Mee came out 10 lengths clear on my interpretation! Also considered Henryville e/w but his hold up style in the conditions will probably preclude him winning.
In fairness to the Racing Post they are responding to feedback and somewhat open to tweaks as they fine tune the new site. Here is their reply to my feedback which I posted earlier in this thread (dialogue is continuing!):
##- Please type your reply above this line -##
Your request (17041) has been updated. To add additional comments, reply to this email.
Alistair B
Alistair Broadbent (Racing Post)
Dec 1, 14:32 GMTDear Chris,
Thank you for your email and please accept our apologies for the delay in our response.
We are grateful for all feedback regards the design of the new site, regardless of whether it is positive or negative, and can confirm that your comments have been viewed by the team responsible.
After considering your feedback, the team have responded and we would invite you to view their response below.
Please do not hesitate to contact ourselves again.
Kind regards,
Alistair Broadbent
Racing Post Customer ServicesHomepage and News
The additional news content on the new site is full publishing of the daily newspaper onto the website. When considering that the daily newspaper costs £2.30 midweek and £2.60 on a weekend, in addition to the fact that Epaper and iPad edition subscribers are paying £30 a month upwards to access the daily edition in a digital format, the decision was made to add this content to the Ultimate (£26 per month) package only. We have, however, as a gesture of goodwill upgraded to your account to the Ultimate package for the month of December, so that you can trial the additional data available to those subscribing to the Ultimate package without any additional charge.
The Going and Non-Runners page overview is still in development but will be complete for when we go fully live with the site.
Sizing – Statistics/Results/Trainer/Horse profiles
We appreciate this feedback on the size of all the content and fonts on the pages and do acknowledge that this now means less lines of data above the ‘fold’ in one view and we will continue to monitor feedback.
Again, we’ll monitor the response on the second tab containing Analysis on results. Some users are saying they prefer this here to scrolling to the bottom of the result, and it tested well, but we’ll monitor feedback.
Cards
The hover over function remains in development, but will be available when the site is fully launched.
Latest shows/price history can be switched on in Settings, it then appears on the card next to the runner.
Your settings should definitely be saved – Should this problem have persisted, please let us know what browser/device you are using and we’ll investigate further.
Jockey’s record
Last 5-seasons is available in the filter. If you click on Stats and then select what you want to filter, if you then choose time period you will have the option of 5 years. However we are making a design change here to make this more intuitive and also to reintroduce last five years to the top level on trainer, jockey and owner profiles.
Horse’s form
Lifetime record ordering in the table – it was felt by the RP team that ordering by most runs per race type was a better experience and more useful, but if this is raised repeatedly we will review.
Quotes tab and clicking should match the offering on the current site – If you are finding that this continues to open slower that on the ‘old’ site, we would be grateful if you could advise accordingly.
Colour coding – This has been looked at, but it can present a design nightmare using a rainbow of colours making it hard to then digest the content. It is, however, something we are still considering.
X number of days since ran – this is also on the backlog as identifying what the X number of days should be before the absence is flagged is quite subjective. Do you have a view on this?
A very interesting thread and I respect everyone’s point of view. Investing is personal, to me some basic truths are:
a) To be successful you fundamentally need to be talented enough in assessing form to be correct enough of the time whatever your staking plan.
b) However, you’ll still have more losers than winners so need to be disciplined whether even staking or looking for even returns.
c) Whatever your staking strategy the shorter prices are just a lot of toing and froing and ultimately bigger profit on turnover will largely depend on longer odds.
d) Given all this there is no harm in having a bet in as many races as possible.
e) If you pick 1 horse in each of 6 races you are adding another layer of difficulty (i.e. more chance of being wrong) if you rank these by strength of fancy (whatever their respective odds) or perceived value as any 1 horse/any 1 race is hard to predict accurately to a high percentage let alone 6 races/60 horses (look at the profit/loss in any naps table and tales of woe on here per multiples!)
f) Similarly, if you have more than 1 bet in a race you are overloading the stress upon being correct about that particular race (even if 2 or 3 horses have perceived vale and can be backed within your staking plan).
Conclusion: Even stakes betting, mainly restricted to 1 horse per race, based on fancy will give you the best return for the minimal potential loss (if you have enough talent). Value in itself, certainly as the main tenet of a staking plan, is overrated!!
I’m still not fully convinced by Native River guys. He has to be rousted under pressure for too long a period in races, which must take a toll, and wears cheekpieces at 6. Idle sorts often go sour with age/mileage. I’m not sure the form of the HGC will work out. Another 20yds and Carole’s – a horse that would need more of a stamina test in Class 1 – would have won, the 3rd & 4th are probably past their best and Blaklion (& others) were disappointing. I think Saturday’s race was ideal in terms of weight (11-1), going, distance and course for NR.
He won’t have the pace for the Stayers Hurdle or the Gold Cup. Conversely the horse is not an out & out stayer (otherwise he would easily have won the 4-miler at the Festival and, unless it was the Heavy going he disliked, run much better in the Towton) so it’s likely he’ll run below form in the National rather than improve for 34.5f, a distance at which he’ll find it harder to keep finding under pressure. Plus he may well have 11-10 and will have likely contested the GC. I wouldn’t fancy him for the Welsh equivalent per weight, style of running, to some extent the trip but moreso a possible aversion to the likely Heavy ground!
Well, Ginge, evidently the stable has nominated Viconte Du Noyer as its National horse so perhaps this will have its prep in the Gold Cup to make up a Dickinson 5!
I had been giving the possibility of a trainers title for the Tizzards some thought – to achieve it would probably require winning the KG, GC and GN. If doing so it’s likely the million pound bonus will be reaped also. Quite staggering success.
Reading recent quotes and from all impressions of Colin Tizzard it appears his top priority, rightly, is to try to fulfil each owner’s wish so I think horses will clash rather than be tactically placed to maximise winnings.
However, it’s fun to muse – what with Fox Norton, the other Potts horses, many of which will improve – if Cue Card wins the million, Thistlecrack takes the Feltham then botches his prep and is rerouted to the RSA or Stayers and Native River collects another big handicap…!
I don’t think Native River will run in the Grand National, the stable seem to have nominated Viconte Du Noyer. I wouldn’t fancy the former if it did run as it would likely have 11-10, will have contested the Gold Cup, will not improve for the trip and will find it harder to keep finding under pressure over 34.5f.
And to add to this, the yard has apparently acquired the 6yo French chaser Alary (best RPR 152 and improving) which will be trained for the Gold Cup – not impossible for the better British/Irish trainers to improve such a horse 20lbs!
I have just sent this missive to the Racing Post!….. here is my feedback on your new website.
HOME
Pros
1) More headline links to stories.
Cons
1) The headline links marked ‘members club’ are only available to ultimate, not essential, members so are a disappointing tease. Are you trying to pressurise essential customers into upgrading?
2) More importantly, there appears to be no one quick link to a day’s going and non runners – only to each separately at each meeting. A real nuisance.NEWS
Pros
1) That the ‘more news’ link takes you to a page that has even more headline links.
Cons
1) An even higher proportion of the headline links in this section are unavailable to essential members.STATISTICS
Pros
1) Better filters, and the larger type works here.
Cons
1) The big problem with the new site – bigger print means less lines of info fit the screen for an at a glance scan.RESULTS
Pros
1) Larger type works ok here too to some extent and results are nicely set out on source page.
Cons
1) Larger print means more scrolling and separate click required for analysis/quotes.CARDS
Pros
1) Quotes seem available to all members at present and spotlight comments sometimes available earlier.
Cons
1) On source page, no hover over (yet) so have to click to see type of race. More clicking and more awkward to see the time of the last Jumps race that is not a bumper.
2) The new layout for the card of a race is too busy and covers too large an area. There is unnecessary repetition of the spotlight comments and the layout of ‘selections’ is less concise. There are no ‘latest shows’/’price history so you cannot see how the market has been moving. Worse, settings are not saved – have to re-set on each log in. Overall: awful.TRAINER’S FORM
Cons
1) Spread over far too great an area for quick assessment of a trainer’s current form. Maximum info at a glance is much preferable to endless scrolling.JOCKEY’S RECORD
Cons
1) Some fancy filters but – an absolute joke – the headline wins & placings to rides by NHF/ Hurdle/Chase is restricted to current season rather than the last 5 seasons total. This will be particularly useless for Jumps in May and June! There is not the time to click and scroll for a rider’s season by season record and even if there were it is not broken down by type of race. I need to know at a glance a claimer’s 5-season stats by type of race to weigh up his/her effectiveness in each Jumps discipline.HORSE’S FORM
Pros
1) THE MOST IMPORTANT SECTION OF ALL! Notifications, e.g. moved yard, inserted into lifetime form on their own lines is helpful.
2) It’s easier to spot on which runs a horse was adorned with which accoutrement/s.
Cons
1) By now you should know what my main bugbear is here! The bigger type is SO inconvenient. A huge amount of excess scrolling is required when making an appraisal of the pattern of a horse’s lifetime form. That is distracting, the lines now cover far too wide an area. On the present site for the majority of horses you may have to press your down arrow once to the lot.
2) The lifetime record summary is not listed uniformly (NHF/H/C) but in order of most number of races per type.
3) The click for quotes is not as instant.
4) What’s so sad is that glorious potential opportunities have been missed in the redesign:
a) Alternate lines of form now have a white or pale blue background but how about introducing 6 backgrounds or 6 different font colours (Chase/Hurdle/NHF/PtoP/ Flat-grass/Flat AW)? This would be much better than the current filters as it would effectively mean you could see the filters as part of the whole.
b) Also, a chance to denote absences of over x no. of days (in the same way as you have inserted notifications) has been missed.CONCLUSION
Upon reflection, your ‘old’ website as it stands now is virtually perfect and I implore you to at least continue to run it indefinitely alongside the new.
If/when I’m forced to use the abhorrent new-look site it will be akin to pulling one’s own teeth! Time is vital to the serious punter when studying form and assessing wagers. It will take weeks to familiarise with the new site and even then it will not be as expedient to use as the old. The process may be too painful to continue investing as I doubt that, e.g. Timeform’s site, is a patch on your superb current site.Keep refreshing or opening a new homepage window and before long you’ll catch the link instead of a bookmaker’s ad or whatever (whether you’re logged in or not). I have bookmarked both old and new sites homepages but RP won’t keep me logged into the old when logged into the new! I agree it is all a bit busy but could be better once familiar with it. While the option is still there I’ll study form on the old and pick quiet midweek meetings with few runners to gradually get used to the new. Still can’t find a story anywhere regarding when the old will disappear.
Thanks Dashing, I will try that e-mail. I think Gallant Sport is the most likely of John Pinfold’s books to still be referred to in 100 years time.
But my argument would be that even those who win long-term are in some way addicted, it’s just that they’re able to handle their addiction slightly better than someone like say a Willie Thorne who is going bankrupt because of gambling.
Not that I’m on that sort of level. Biggest bet I’ve ever done is 3k and biggest amount I’ve won is 1.7k.
Addicted to what? “Racing” probably, “gambling” no.
Those that “win long term” tend to bet less often when things aren’t going right, sometimes stopping altogether and not having a bet for three weeks or more. They also keep rigidly to the type of race/bet they know has worked for them in the past and bet only when finding what they consider to be a value bet. Are those the hallmarks of an addict?I agree with Ginger, as with drink and drugs most people can enjoy gambling long-term without becoming addicted. Probably an addictive personality is the reason somebody turns any of those three things into a vice, addicted to some kind of high, may not matter which it is.
I didn’t bet between mid-May & mid-Sept, mainly because of doing research for a Grand National history website I aim to create but partly due to the rare Jumps card on RUK being overwhelmed by about four Flat meetings!
I may not be having a bet for several weeks now, and this may be a cure for all addicts that use the site, because racingpost.com is getting a new look. It might be better but it will take a while to assimilate form remotely as quickly as needs to be done until used to the new layout. Time to start a new thread methinks!
If a person’s motivation is that feeling Judge it could be said they have an addiction. Its the same as an alcoholic or drug addict ever chasing the feeling of their first high. In the example you give its not money or amount of that is the key, its the ego boost that is sought (and the quest is undisclipined). Its gambling in its problem form (unless the person has an uncommon amount of luck). That’s not to say the disclipined gambler can’t lose, disclipine has to be allied to skill. When the combination has proven to produce a profit over a period of time gambling, as Ginger says, rather becomes a form of investment.
If a person enjoys watching a lot of horse racing, becomes fascinated by the intricacies of form and finds they can make a profit, on whatever scale, by putting their knowledge to good use their main motivation remains interest in the sport, they can understand and accept why a wager lost. Perhaps only a few winning speculations at long odds per season will give a thrill, perhaps because few other people fancied the horse. Yes that’s also an ego boost but one that is not essential because often more joy can be felt witnessing a great moment in the sport we all love – or should be because using racing as a means to an end, regarding it and its human and equine constituents routinely, in search of self-aggrandisement is a shame.
Thanks Dashing, that site is one of the many sources, both online and written, I am employing – the British Newspaper Archive is especially helpful for up to 1954, Grand National Anorak’s sites for 1946-1979 – and my idea is to produce something comprehensive and continuous with facts and stories. I tend to get distracted in the core Jumps season by hours of form study!
Firstly I am researching and hand-writing in rough the facts for each year’s National. For example, each horse will be listed by finishing position, then by furthest got and the line of info will contain: years previously ran in race, finishing position, name, age & weight, trainer, jockey, odds, lengths beaten/where departed, description of how ran. Sources are sometimes incomplete and often contradictory but with a bit of common sense, logic and understanding it can be done. I have completed 1836-1977.
When this part is finished, and I have researched how to create and design a website!, I will do the stories for each year’s race. I will take the approach of asking and answering questions a reader might have. Therefore, for 1836 I will try to answer: How did this race come about?, Was this a Grand National?, What was steeplechasing like in the era? What was the course and race like?…and also I’ll discuss talking points arising from the race incidents.
The other main part will be compiling indexes of horses, trainers and jockeys, with a sentence on each trainer and jockey, and to create hyperlinks.
Then all of this will have to be typed in from rough!
If anyone reading this is able to put me in touch with Mick Mutlow I would be very grateful.
