[ElizaVoiceoftheRaces]

http://ww w.peta.org/issues/ animals-used-for-clothing/chinese-fur-industry.aspx

Are you saying all of this is a pack of lies? That there is no basis in fact for any of the reports of cruelty and associated images. Are they all doctored, or out of context in order to deceive the reader? The internet is, as we all know, a great thing, and I am sure if anyone had the inclination here of anywhere else a counter volley of weblinks could be posted to disprove your claims.

You seem to be making some very radical claims, which I for one am not qualified to challenge. However given you are very open about the relatively short time you have followed racing, you also seem to be making claims about that sport which belie the short time you have followed the sport.

Hello Ivanjica. I will attempt to answer your points thoroughly.
Your PETA link.
Yes of course it is a ‘pack of lies’. As you appear to be having trouble identifying a reliable citation from a propaganda organisation whose videos and dogma have been repeatedly exposed on many issues and who stand for the complete eradication of all domesticated animals I will try to assist.

But as I always tell my degree students; if you google ‘faked moon landings’ you would gather from google that the Apollo missions never happened. Sometimes the conspiracists are able to outweigh rational reliable sources on the net – the net is NOT a great thing if you cannot differentiate between reliable and unreliable citations. Reliable academic research is available on the web but it takes a bit of finding. My own for example will be on about page 10 000 on climate research but there will be plenty of populist views at the top of search engines and the reliable academic work not easily digestable and generally found in academic repositories. Just for you to see mine:
http://nora.nerc.ac.uk/2095/

The reason I say this is because I have a relaible independent scientific research report coming up on the fur farm welfare.

Here are some of the cases such organisations regularly use in their propaganda. Read it carefully. All can be independently corroborated but as they are all here in one place it is easy to check. But google the court cases by all means.
http://www.furcommission.com/news/newsC7.htm

Here Penn and Teller do an expose on PETA. Not academic but they are pretty astute at exposing illusions 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7kXUPy-d … re=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OzQgfWYw … re=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wsUSDMcl … re=related

In addition the leaders of PETA have frequently supported acts of arson violence and terrorism openly and I am sure that most people would find the prospect of a world without pets pretty ‘radical’. So I am bemused that you could possibly level such a charge at me.

By contrast my views have come from a lifetime study of Geography. That is concerned with the impact of natural and man on the planet. I have studied land use and economic activities and how they impact the planet. I have worked in a professional capacity alongside Conservationists. So I know for example about how opossum have to be culled anyway; how beaver nutria reindeer and seal are not endangered and are eaten as well as used for fur; and are not farmed but managed sustainably as a resource frequently by indigenous people who rely on the pelts solely for their economy and whose ideology animal rights has had a devastating impact on. I have also worked alongside people like Survival International who protect the rights of indigenous people.

The IUCN does not consider not using animals as a resource as an option for future Conservation and the fur trade works closely with them in abiding by CITES rules. Animal rights ideology by contrast is polarised to this and they do not care about species extinction at an ideological level. Indeed ; many of their propsals any geographer will tell you will actually bring them about rather rapidly. The planet cannot sustain vast intensive arable monoculture which would be required if we did not use animals which – and the reindeer is a classic example – can exist on natural lichens etc). But the problem is hypocritical speciesism and more than a bit of cultural prejudice. We can use cows; but they can’t use reindeer because they are cute. That is not rational.

By far the best information on fur farm welfare was the EEC study done by independent welfare experts; leaders in this field:
http://ec.europa.eu/food/fs/sc/scah/out74_en.pdf

This online report has many amendments to the original which the scientists say was doctored so insist on putting the record straight. Check the crdentials of the scientists if in doubt: they are impeccable. Read from pages 5 and 6 on. You will find they concur that fur farm welfare generally good and in some cases practices exemplary. In the case of weaning of mink for example. Common sense should tell you that the images we see in the you tube and animal rights videos are false because for example it would be ludicrous to position one animal above another in a wire cage because one would urinate on the other thereby ruining the fur. A fur bearing animal suffering stress would also lose its fur as any animal that undergoes stress even pets. So husbandry has to be extremely good. There are lots of other academic papers on this issue that support this and none back up PETA’s claims. because they know this they have shifted the deabte to China where we have no way of knowing welfare standards. However the Chinese governement have consistently asked for evidence of the perpetrators without any coming forward. If one is in doubt then avoid Chinese fur. I personally haven’t ever come across any and I have a fair bit. Most of which is from indigenous peoples; including reindeer fur from when I stayed with the Sami and ate the meat too. the reindeer are 8 million in total and are shot and killed instantly. The Sami would not tolerate cruelty to their animals and the deaths are sometimes accompanied by the reverance of shamanic ritual. A far cry from one’s sunday lunch.

You may not be familiar with the fact that whips are padded nowadays in the UK at least. It is impossible to cause damage. Try it. You can feel it but it doesn’t hurt. I gave Carl Llewellyn the National winning jockey some pretty damn good slaps with an old style whip and he didn’t flinch. McAnally was the trainer of Go for Wand and clearly attached and emotional. He stated that they give their lives for our entertainment; but this kind of event is thankfully rare. But with tens of thousands of horse racing daily around the globe it is bound to happen. Jockeys also give their lives in some cases. All we can do is ensure maximum effort is made to ensure safety; but in the wild horses have a far bleaker outlook; their daily life is a constant struggle; they are riddled with parasites and suffer predation and their life expectancy far lower. A horse with the smallest injury in the wild will not survive and die a protracted death. So it is fair to say racehorses are pampered; and while sometimes yes sadly they do die; the PETA option is to eradicate all of them. Permanently.

Which is why it should not be overused and if it is there is the rules are enforced by stewards. For the majority of a race a horse will be held up by the jockey; not whipped from the word go. If a horse suffered long term psychological effects from the whip it is not in the interest of the owner trainer or jockey.

Horses do gallop from danger – they are flee animals so will do so from a rustle in the grass. It is part of their psyche. It does not mean they are perpetually frightened. They run for many reasons and have been engineered by nature over millions of years to do so. I am not a horsewoman but one only has to sit alongside another horse to realise that one will always speed up if it is dominant. It is this which is utilised. We did not teach horse to race they taught us. May I introduce you to the rather beautiful Muallaqat poems that predate Islam to illustrate this behaviour in the Arabian horse; which is of course the ancestor of the modern thoroughbred which has been bred from the stock in which this tendency was most pronounced:

"And the horse, like a roebuck that has grazed on the Rabl plant began shaking its head with annoyance from the pouring sweat
And It began racing with our young she camel As we led it beside her. It is hard for us to handle Like a snake let loose. It overtook them
And galloped off Passing quickly like a pouring cloud."

Alqamah al-Fahl

It is a difficult job sometimes. Others adapt to a new job or being a pet readily. The ones that do not are the ones that the great work of equine rehabilitation can help with. However there are many many horses who go on in the hunting field, as polo ponies or eventers or hacks without much trouble. But some become as humans do when they have been doing something a long time and find it difficult to adapt to change. We have retraining and rehabilitation for humans too. And of course I would say that such scaremongering about retired racehorses in itself can present a problem. Riders are often wary of them when they need not be. They are trained from a young age to behave in a string for example; while I have seen some dreadful behaviour from children’s ponies by contrast! If in doubt about how horses are treated try going to a stable open day as many thousands of us do or even just turning up. Here; no warning I just turned up and asked and no BHA involvement:

http://www.lovetheraces.com/voices-of-t … e_tab=blog

You are correct – all industry must have constant scrutiny from within and from independent but unbiased expert obsevers and at the momemnt that is precisely what is happening. However Animal Aid as political profit making organisation with no practical involvement as far as it appears in animal welfare do not have a role. That is why this is being discussed here and by the BHA; why a great deal of money is spent on equine welfare research and rehab; why rules are enforced with frequent punishments nobody is above (as recently with Howard Johnson) etc. But all change modification and improvement must result from rational consideration. NOT the activities of a group that have turnover of just under a £million and spend nothing on animal welfare or research and as an animal rights group align themselves with not just elimination of the sport but elimination of the thoroughbred. By contrast groups like rehabilitation centres, the ILPH and World Horse Welfare, and even the RSPCA work with racing not against it. Most two year old races I see the jockeys are easy on the horse to the extent where people in the bookies will scream at the screen! But if they have hard seasons early on in their career you have to acknowledge that unlike NH where horses are brought on much more slowly in general; many horse are retired at 3 or 4 anyway to enjoy a life at stud or another activity. Those that go on like the sprinters (such as The Tatling at age 14) clearly did not suffer any problems resulting from a tough two year old career where he raced nine times and was seldom out of the frame.

Many people’s idea of a hero in the sport is Sir Peter O’Sullevan, he is certainly one of mine. He was a lifelong campaigner against the whip, and supports banning it.

One opinion among many. I certainly do not consider it rational in the whip’s current form. And from what I have seen of whipless races abroad it can look rather more bullying with lots of ugly heel work. If there comes a time when this becomes the dominant view in racing the whip will go. But I think personally that would be rather sad and done purely for a perceived public view. If we keep it and educate people as to its use and have stricter penalties for misuse this would be far more balanced an approach. There may be whip design improvements too in the future.

Howard Johnson received a hefty ban. Which shows that abuse will not be tolerated.

Maguire got a ban for misuse of the whip. In such situations on big occasions jockeys have to make a decision and sometimes they breach the rules. Perhaps a longer ban would have been appropriate.

Rather akin to saying that perhaps we should ban the offside rule in football so we don’t need to consider breach of it.

The horses are probably also fitter; and for the most part a fit jockey is an aid to a horse rather than a hindrance.

Yes I thought he hit the horse too much and was penalised as a result. As far as I know the horse appeared to be well next day:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/horser … e-win.html

So much for emotive terms like ‘brutality’ which carry little credence in the cold light of the morning.

Far from it. The views I express are my own not those of the BHA and the topic is being widened by people such as yourself so I have again had to return to it. I have no interest in politics and am not alligned by membership of any party or group; I am a scientist. I have a great interest and a fair degree of knowledge of issues in which animal rights ideology, which is highly politicised and radical, has become involved. Groups like the IUCN and Conservationists and Geographers have to tackle the untruths they present constantly. That is of course if you are interested in an informed opinion on such matters. The main issue being that to sustain the population of the planet on arable agriculture would involve destoying massive animal habitat and wiping out species. Even on a small scale in the EEC it has been devastating for birds and insects.
http://www.ecifm.rdg.ac.uk/monoculture.htm

So Animal Rights is not only irresponsible it is positively dangerous (especially to animals) and it is not ‘radical’ for me or any academic or Conservationist to point that out. Animal Rights groups are also opposed to animal welfare groups. Furthermore they continually obstruct Science of other kinds. For example you will have seen in the news yesterday that a future ‘smart bomb’ for the treatment of cancer that is the best chance of a cure we have ever come up with based on Autumn Crocus was done through experimentation on mice.

In a free society to allow such groups to express opinion and foster hate and violence toward science is one thing; but to take any notice of them seriously is another. It is in that context that the debate against horse racing is taking place. Stakeholders and expert opinion such as that of veterinarians are what we should be considering and Animal Aid and animal rights ideology do not have an opinion that should be respected or have input at all. It is akin to allowing fundamental christians who belive the Earth is only 6000 years old to dictate or have input on the teaching of evolution.

p.s. Mon Mome won the National off 148 carrying 11st. 4 months earlier he had started favourite for the Welsh Grand National and had been raised 4 lbs in between. So he was perfectly entitled to line up at Aintree. I think you are confusing his SP (100/1) with his handicap mark, in terms of concluding his race credentials.[/

Indeed. Your knowledge on horse racing and form etc probably far exceeds mine; so no doubt you backed it. On a serious note; it is why I spend most of my time reading here not posting. So I learn from those who do have knowledge. But where I can offer an opinion that is qualified; please respect that I am not here to cherry pick and my evidence is mostly sound citation not selective. I could expand at considerable length but have shortened it for sake of forum convention. That may still be too long for some!

As far as bringing new people into the sport I have not encountered any serious objection to whip etc other than those involved in the animal rights lobby. We are a society who slaughter millions of ungulates annually and few people consider that when they eat sunday dinner or cooked breakfast. So the whip and Grand National safety is something that concerns the fans of the sport more strongly than the public. The Grand National will again be watched by millions around the glove next year. If we could only feed that public enthusiasm into normal racing. However; for the record I am not ‘charged’ by the BHA to do anything else than report on my days at the races and am not paid – and my view is my own. If you have evidence to the contrary you should cite it because demonstrably unfounded ad hominem attack is the last resort of a bankrupt argument. Note I have at no time questioned your agenda; and certainly would not without proof to support it. There is no call for it and we call it as I said unecessary ad hominem. It simply undermines your argument by clutching at non existent straws. Nevertheless I have had the courtesy to answer in depth the points you have raised; and perhaps as it is drifting from the point somehwat we resort now to pm if you wish to discuss any topic other than the thread op. As I said before I went into some detail because I was asked to provide evidence of how the campaign by animal rights groups and the RSPCA has not impacted fur sales which are at their highest ever despite the recession. You can fool some of the people all of the time and all of the people some of the time but eventually truth and evidence wins the day; at least to those who are interested in hearing it.

[ElizaVoiceoftheRaces]

Thank you both!! Again some interesting information gleaned.

Thanks to all so far who have taken the time to respond I appreciate it. xx

[ElizaVoiceoftheRaces]

Hi there. Welcome to the forum.
You will find most of your questions can be answered here – just fire away.
Also, I write a blog as someone learning myself on another website run by the BHA which you may find useful ; along with several others from first season racegoers to jockey David Crosse and trainer Amy Weaver. So you can learn by following one or several blogs. Also the site itself has many features for those new to Racing; such as a dynamic comic book style strip to explain some of odds and terms; to tips on what to wear:-

lovetheraces.com

Enjoy and welcome to a great sport!! xx

[ElizaVoiceoftheRaces]

Thank you Rob! yes am still collecting; the more the better! May I ask you what got you interested as a child?

Also thank you re the input on Scottish courses. Shortly I have to go to Edinburgh university to do some ice core/tephra research so hope to pay at least one course a visit while there. Rosebery cafe sounds good at Musselburgh – is the racecourse far from the town and accessible by public transport? xx

Eliza

I remember watching Arkle against Mill House at theage of about 3 or 4 and that got me interested. Visits to Ascot from the age of 8 onwards got me hooked and watching Nijinsky win at Ascot in 1970 was a clincher!

Musselburgh is adjacent to the town centre and a doddle by bus from the centre of Edinburgh, services 26, 44 or 44A will take you to Musselburgh High Street within a few minutes walk of the course. Alternatively train to Wallyford and catch the free shuttle bus to the course, although there’s only one train an hour.

Rob

Thank you Rob.
I am sure I would have become interested at an early age – as it is I was ‘hooked’ by an individual horse. I remember school friends going on and on about Desert Orchid too. So think the horses are important as the stars of the sport; particularly but not exclusively with the young. That may appear evident but sometimes I note that racecourses do not make the most of identifying individual horses; whether they be veteran heroes or potental stars of the future. Other courses do make the most of it though – Cheltenham for example.

Thank you for the input on Musselburgh – hope to get there soon! x

[ElizaVoiceoftheRaces]

Kenh – just responding to some of your points; hope this clarifies :

I am afraid you do; because it is not evident without evidence! To assume such is indeed a ‘prejudice’. The evidence put to Parliament including from the Royal College of Veterinarians among others suggested that of all the options for dealing with foxes hunting was the least cruel. QUOTE:
"This carefully compiled document published in 2007 in collaboration with the All Parliamentary Middle Way Group comprehensively puts the scientific record straight in respect of the hunting debate and demonstrates that there are not and never were any scientific grounds for banning hunting on the grounds of cruelty."
http://www.vet-wildlifemanagement.org.u … et7-07.pdf

I didn’t. Animal Rights advocates do; they think it is ‘evident’. The reason I raised it is because you do not – I think you may be able to produce evidence to the contrary of course

Not at all. I know you are not. But you need to know what they are about; and why they cannot be appeased. As a Geographer with some knowledge and experience of Conservation I can tell you Animal rights ideology ideology is regarded as unhelpful at best and dangerous at worst. I think people in racing may be unfamiliar with this. So I do not think you are ‘one of them’ but suggesting they have any credence in the matter at hand is misleading and the result of unfamiliarity with their ideology.

Foxes have no natural predator in the UK because we have removed it from the eco system. To reintroduce it appears to me reasonable – in the same way falconry controls pest birds. The fox like all wild animals expects predation as is evident in its behaviour; it runs and does not remain motionless which is the behaviour most associated with terror. The alternatives in wildlife management to hunting have regularly caused major welfare problems with wild animal populations; including disease in several case examples such as rabbit and deer. There appears to be very little concern with animal welfare as long as someone in a red coat isn’t involved

Of course – perhaps more valid! You would perhaps know more about fence construction than I so would heed your opinion. Indeed I am a newcomer to racing so your knowledge based on experience of racing carries far more weight than mine. On the issue of animal rights however – with respect – I have ten years of professional experience which has frequently involved confronting their irrational arguments. Hence feel I have something to offer with regard to this debate. One cannot appease the animal rights lobby. With regard to hunting in the broader context and fur trade I have particular specialist knowledge. The RSPCA in taking up positions against foxhunting and fur did little to damage support for them; apparently the support for both has risen (again I provided detailed evidence. Those who appreciate that these activities have strong credentials in supporting conservation goals are now likely to remain alienated from the RSPCA. That would include supporters of the IUCN who have a strong stand on sustainable use; but are by nature what I would describe as people who really care about animals. In addition; through spending astronomical sums of money of their campaigns while putting thousands of animals down (presumably due to cost considerations) has done little for their credibility: there is now a strong objection against their policy of destroying animals (again I gave an example of this).

So I gave you the evidence for which you asked.

My point in raising this was to show that Racing should not fear and appease the RSPCA : the measures adopted suuggested by them arguably may have contributed to the problems we saw; and if they wish to retain an influential role it would be better all around if they remained working with racing not against it. I hope they do

I haven’t seen any evidence from you or any other reliable source on the issue of hunting that has much rational credence. I arrived at my own opinions through having pursued an academic career in Geography which concerns itself with the impact of human and natural change on the Earth. I concur with most scientific observation that hunting happens to have a massive beneficial role in protecting habitat. I am not at all interested in hunting otherwise. So I think you could say that my opinion is both expert (within the confines of the forum at least)and objective. As Tony Blair pointed out he considers the legsilation on hunting a mistake as while he would not hunt he underestimated the validity of its importance in countryside. That is the point: we can all have an opinion but the opinions of those to who are closest to and most knowledgeable about something need to be heard – and if they have rational evidence to support their case then they should have been listened to.

The Animal rights lobby support terrorism including bombing and targeting individuals and public with terror campaigns such as the poisoning of products. I think you will find that the Hunting lobby have by contrast accepted the law and while some continue to campaign for repeal others are happy working within it

No what I said is that an opinion is only as valid as the evidence on which it is based. You appear to be offering an opinion without any evidence to support it.
‘prejudice’ definition:

a. An adverse judgment or opinion formed beforehand or without knowledge or examination of the facts.
b. A preconceived preference or idea.
2. The act or state of holding unreasonable preconceived judgments or convictions

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/prejudice

My opinion may be challenged of course but it is based on a little knowledge of the subject of Conservation not on a preconceived idea; and I produced some of that in response to your request for you to consider.

I agree – where did I say we should not? What I am saying is we should do that because it is in the interests of safety for horse and rider and not for the perceptions of the public. The ‘public’ actually supports the Grand National more than any other race in the world!!! When we discussed the public response to the BBC I pointed out that they got very few complaints next to an episode of Eastenders!! So I think actually the public don’t care much about horse welfare; animal rights advocates want the thoroughbred neutered out of existence; and actually (evidence that we are all still talking about it here!) those in Racing care most. The changes that are made to the Grand National therefore should be made by specialist opinion of riders,owners, trainers, vets, fence builders, animal welfare experts etc etc. This is not my specialist area of knowledge so I do not want expect to have an input. But we definitely must be careful we don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater through pandering to those who have grievances against all horse racing; especially when the Grand National is the race that most of the public are interested in – it therefore must be doing something right.

Hope that clarifies my position as I am not saying make no changes – on the contrary. Just that it is not wise for change to result because a perceived public response. I have yet to see evidence of any mass public furore. Change has to be for the participants; and suggestions made by the participants (owners trainers jockeys etc) veterinarians and welfare experts within the Sport. Including suggestions from the RSPCA if they wish to continue to have an input; but they have to be based on rational premise. A whip ban is not relevant; though strict enforcement of existing whip misuse is sensible

[ElizaVoiceoftheRaces]

Hmmm, I prefer the crazy world of Arthur Brown, Eliza.

A bit before your time but I think you will like.

http://youtu.be/WLMjHy12eWo

Ha ha. I think pyrotehnics have come along way since then !

[ElizaVoiceoftheRaces]

Well I can’t give the eloquent long replies, I prefer to keep things simpler. ‘Chasing a terrified animal for miles with a pack of baying hounds in order to kill it is cruel’. You can give all the justification for fox hunting that you want but that is what it boils down to. I would have more respect for the hunting community if they were honest. They talk about conservation etc, but the reason they do it is for fun.

On the original topic I agree with Cormack. Racing does need the permission of the public to take place. As it is, it is a minority sport which the vast majority of public couldn’t care less about. It is for that reason that we have to listen to the public. It is all to easy to take an isolationist view and say stuff em but, we need them. The Grand National is horse racings shop window and is the only race most watch. Public perception is important. To that end we have to do all we can to make it safe. If it does mean to some extent that the character of the race is slightly changed then so be it. It seems that some people have the same old reaction to change. Without change racing will die.

You asked me for evidence; and I went to some lengths to give it to you. By contrast you have not put up any evidence to support your opinion.

Emotive and ‘simple’ arguments generally suggest prejudice not rational objectivity. The word ‘terrifed’ is also used by animal rights activists to describe horses running in a race. Of course it isn’t true; and anybody who knows or observes can see that view is false; so such things need to be confronted and debunked.

The idea that ‘change’ is necessarily a good thing also needs some challenge. Change as a reaction to ill informed prejudice is not necessarily progressive or advantageous; indeed it can be the opposite; and especially when based on outdated and debunked animal rights ideology. We do not yet have rule by the (tiny vocal minority) mob. We are supposed to consider the contributions of informed opinion and scientific evidence before arriving at a course of ‘change’.

Whatever the issue; any ‘change’ – whether to foxhunting or the Grand National or any other issue – should be based on rational consideration. So has the ban on foxhunting resulted in better welfare for the fox or stag? Doubtful – may I point out the reaction of former members and directors of the LACS who point that out. The ban was the result of prejudice rather than rational considerations; and dismissed a great deal of evidence for the sake of a political agenda. It also matters little whether we as individuals approve of something; the fact remains that these activities have proven conservation benefits and alternative economic activities on the land in question can have far more long term and damaging consequences for animal habitat. I have already given scientific evidence on this earlier in the thread.

Likewise we should not be interested in ‘change’ to the Grand National course unless we are sure it will benefit the welfare of horse and safety of jockey. The RSPCA was happy at changes already made this year but it did not prevent the fatalities; and in some ways may have contributed to them.

Yes Racing needs to change – my blog is part of the Racing for Change initiative. So I am not against change where it can improve things. But we should not ‘change’ things to satisfy the prejudices of the animal rights lobby who stand against the ending of all animal domestication. The Grand National gets the biggest audience of any race in the world; tens of millions of viewers worldwide. That suggests something about it is what the rest of racing should be attempting to emulate! As well as attempting to improve saftey (which we should only be doing based on rational basis for the nbenefit of participants), we should also be looking at what is ‘right’ with the Grand National that we clearly need to keep because of the massive public interest in it. Turning it into a normal jumps race to appease those who criticise it is of little point when those critics want to ban racing full stop. Racing may be a minority sport; but the Grand National is probably one of the most watched sporting events in the world. We do not want to change that.

[ElizaVoiceoftheRaces]

Quote me to Mark:

Hi Mark
Goodwood? That’s tomorrow. I am going for a horse I gave as one of my Facebook ‘music tips’ here is my clue. 3.50 at Goodwoood 16/1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8HFDPt69jY

Ha ha you probably won’t believe this but I spent a month giving a music video as my clue for the day for a tip and if you’d had a £10 level stake each way on my suggestions you’d have finished over £200 up!! Study all you want but when I do I don’t do any better than being that random!!!

If horses ran to form bookies would be skint!!! I could have given Eton Rifles there I suppose but I am not a fan of The Jam. Or you could have Dock of the Bay ha ha. The tipsters hated it I was giving tips out like that on Facebook and doing better than them!!! Watch the reaction of the host here when I give my ‘irrational rationale’ for picking a winner at Sandown when I was their tipser for the day!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y8ePzA72qe4

So you won’t find me studying form for long ha ha I’d rather look at them in the paddock or just follow a yard in form or a particular horse or just go on a hunch. Sacrilige to some of you probably but a woman’s perogative!!! xxx

Bewlow Zero third at 20/1 xx

[ElizaVoiceoftheRaces]

Been to Chester a couple of times and enjoyed it.

Here was one of my blog entries:
http://www.lovetheraces.com/voices-of-t … e_tab=blog

I liked the Mer sefaood restaurant and think it would be a goodplace to entertain a few friends or clients; because it is situated between the paddock and (is right on) the winning post and food and al fresco ambience are really nice

http://www.chester-races.co.uk/mer-seafood-bar

[ElizaVoiceoftheRaces]

Eliza

If your’e still collecting answers…

….11. Are food and drink prices at the races too high; or good value?
I

13. What do you enjoy about going racing? Eg atmosphere, spectacle, better punting experience, day out, social etc

14. What are your favourite courses? Why?

Rob

Thank you Rob! yes am still collecting; the more the better! May I ask you what got you interested as a child?

Also thank you re the input on Scottish courses. Shortly I have to go to Edinburgh university to do some ice core/tephra research so hope to pay at least one course a visit while there. Rosebery cafe sounds good at Musselburgh – is the racecourse far from the town and accessible by public transport? xx

[ElizaVoiceoftheRaces]

"aaronizneez":sj0du8la wrote: 10. Do you like an alcoholic drink at the races?
Yes, just as I like an alcoholic drink when I go to a football match or after a game of golf or when watching the telly at home or early doors down the local or……..
11. Are food and drink prices at the races too high; or good value?

and I’m one of the few that quite likes Wolverhampton even on a freezing night in winter, once again largely due to the fact that you can move around at your leisure and not wait too long for……. a pint

Thank you Aarononizneez – very informative and makes me want to try Towcester – though weren’t they going to dispense with the whip or something a while back? What happened about that?

On the alcohol thing once again I think you raise some important points. I think discounted drinks could cause drunkleness to escalate; but perhaps a ‘tapas’model would again make sense. That is; in various latin nations you cannot drink at a bar unless you sit down and eat. It makes it far more pleasant. So perhaps lower priced wines etc with food and seated areas but not expensive model restaurants. Not enough of those in my opinion and I hate queuing at a bar.

ha ha want to try Wolverhampton!! Never been to a floodlight meeting yet. xx thank you!!

[ElizaVoiceoftheRaces]

If horses ran to form bookies would be skint!!! I could have given Eton Rifles there I suppose but I am not a fan of The Jam. Or you could have Dock of the Bay ha ha. The tipsters hated it I was giving tips out like that on Facebook and doing better than them!!! Watch the reaction of the host here when I give my ‘irrational rationale’ for picking a winner at Sandown when I was their tipser for the day!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y8ePzA72qe4

So you won’t find me studying form for long ha ha I’d rather look at them in the paddock or just follow a yard in form or a particular horse or just go on a hunch. Sacrilige to some of you probably but a woman’s perogative!!! xxx

After studying form Eliza, I can back the horse who I believe has the worst chance of winning, which sounds "irrational" to some.

Yes I follow Ferdy Murphy too ha ha

[ElizaVoiceoftheRaces]

When everyone has left the lab Planet Rock will go on the radio

I trust that’s

Planet Rock

as in the Afrika Bambaataa track from 1982? A genuine landmark statement in electro, and a song whose influence resonated in house, trance, hip-hop, etc. for years after.

If it’s something else that’s shamefully pilfered the same name, I think I might need to have a lie-down…

gc

ha ha no:

http://www.planetrock.com/

have a lie down!!

At the moment am listening to this and am SO p******d off that the London gig is already sold out:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sc7gWnmM … re=related

[ElizaVoiceoftheRaces]

Some fifties influence; but more 40s and 80s would be my style influences.

I too am an admirer of the crisp and understated sartorial elegance of both ladies’ and gentlemen’s ‘fashions’ during the ’40s and ’50s, which have not been bettered in my opinion

Do you know Fleur de Guerre?

http://www.diaryofavintagegirl.com/

She’s also a regular contributor to The Chap magazine

http://www.thechap.net/

Which may amuse and entertain you

As for dressing ‘up’ for the races, well that’s not my kinda thing, but I do choose to dress smartly, which in my case means jacket (three Harris Tweed’s you’ll be delighted to hear) double-cuff shirt, pressed trousers and leather shoes lasted in Northamptonshire. However I have a pathological dislike of neckties so other than the occasional donning of a cravat am always open-necked, unless the weather necessitates a cashmere scarf, as it frequently does at Wetherby in mid-winter

I actually enjoy dressing ‘well’ wherever I may encounter the public i.e outwith my home, as I feel comfortable and confident doing so. But each to their own, and appearance shouldn’t maketh the man or woman, nor taketh from him or her

That said, the all-pervading sea of blue denim, trackies, trainers and logoed t-shirts that seems

de rigueur

for most from 8 to 80 these days must be a sartorial nadir

The High Street is full of clothes shops but everyone chooses Primark it would seem

Hi there
yes I know of Fleur – she is on the same online model portfolio site as Ceri and I. Yes she is very stylish!! Would love to get her to the races.
Fleur: http://www.modelmayhem.com/484564
Ceri: http://www.modelmayhem.com/1328553
Me: http://www.modelmayhem.com/823132

Yes I am not necessarily a lover of ties; I far prefer cravats and consider them far more stylish and elegant; and your style sounds what I would call well dressed!

My current favourite ‘style icon’ if any gentlemen would like my ‘chap cool’ guide ha ha would be Basil Rathbone. Have been watching his Holmes movies lately as my partner’s brother is a bit of a fan so has them all on DVD.

[ElizaVoiceoftheRaces]

I think the problem is there can be a little inverted snobbery when it comes to dressing up. The assumption that anyone who is somehow ‘false’ or there is the ‘who do they think they are?" factor if they are dressed up. I do not look down on those who dress casually; and in my experience few who dress up do – though perhaps some who are casual feel they have to justify themselves through condemning those who are dressed well.

Eliza,

I totally agree there is more inverted snobbery around these days, encouraged by the tabloid press. I’ve worked for Lords, Ladies, millionaires, working men/women and the unemployed. There are good and bad in every walk of life. I’ve said so on TRF pages before, defending tweed wearing racegoers. I talk to all racegoers interested in racing whatever their dress. Have racing pals who are underwriters and some low paid, makes no difference to me. All are welcome on the racecourse as far as i am concerned.

However, I don’t think Aaronizneez is judging the well-dressed. Just that those who like to wear shorts should also be encouraged to go racing. Think some of his comments you seem to have taken offence to may be ironic humour. Aimed at mass media opinion, not particularly his own opinion.

In the same way as some might see your comment not encouraging the "lowest comman denominator" might seem to some about the jeans wearing public (including myself). Rather than what I believe your meaning to be, the beer swilling yob culture which everyone here can agree with. I know dress codes at racecourses were introduced to keep the yob out. Where as these days the yob can afford a suit anyway. I see it often enough from the suited brigade outside the members bar at Goodwood. Yob culture seems to fit in to any clothes these days.

Anyway Eliza, got to study for Goodwood!

Mark

Hi Mark
no – I didn’t take offence at Aaronizneez – what he raised was a good point that I felt needed the input I gave as its one that comes across a lot lately (particularly by some racing journalists) and deserves the reply I gave which wasn’t intended as confrontational.

I certainly agree re yobs in suits. And to me there is nothing worse that an ill fitting polyester suit; and strict suits codes can repress individual expression.

For example I regard these as well dressed:
http://fashionmodestyle.com/wp-content/ … ed-men.jpg
http://shoponline.daks.com/Portals/0/Cl … _MW_17.jpg
http://www.fashionfame.com/wp-content/u … shion.jpeg
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-Vn8A … 1%255D.jpg

If I was on a racecourse door on a normal they would all be in to members!!

And these BADLY dressed:

http://www.thechap.net/content/images/FA-suit.jpg

http://menmedia.co.uk/manchesterevening … voids_jail

I wouldn’t even let in the silver ring ha ha.

The better London night clubs for as long as I lived there (10 years plus) have had more subtle dress codes and door policies and the simple donning of a suit is not a passport in. They have people on the door who understand fashion and know that louts can come in suits. I think racing needs to learn that. I saw someone turned away at one racecourse recently who was a young lad who looked amazing – easily the best dressed there in a frock coat and steampunk look. Meanwhile badly dresed and drunken already – but suited – yobs walked in.

And I can’t begin to tell you the stories of London bankers on a night out. While I like cufflinks and a nice pinstripe suit; that ‘uniform’ can also be associated with dreadful behaviour.

Goodwood? That’s tomorrow. I am going for a horse I gave as one of my Facebook ‘music tips’ here is my clue. 3.50 at Goodwoood 16/1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8HFDPt69jY

Ha ha you probably won’t believe this but I spent a month giving a music video as my clue for the day for a tip and if you’d had a £10 level stake each way on my suggestions you’d have finished over £200 up!! Study all you want but when I do I don’t do any better than being that random!!!

If horses ran to form bookies would be skint!!! I could have given Eton Rifles there I suppose but I am not a fan of The Jam. Or you could have Dock of the Bay ha ha. The tipsters hated it I was giving tips out like that on Facebook and doing better than them!!! Watch the reaction of the host here when I give my ‘irrational rationale’ for picking a winner at Sandown when I was their tipser for the day!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y8ePzA72qe4

So you won’t find me studying form for long ha ha I’d rather look at them in the paddock or just follow a yard in form or a particular horse or just go on a hunch. Sacrilige to some of you probably but a woman’s perogative!!! xxx

[ElizaVoiceoftheRaces]

"Eliza,
There is certainly

nothing

wrong with dressing up and it should indeed be one way of encouraging people to come racing. Particularly women who are for one thing, under represented, but (thanks to initiatives like lovetheraces) also the fastest growing sector of racegoers.
However, there is a significant number of the general public who (

wrongly

) see racing and racegoers as "

eliteist

". And by seeing

nothing but

the well-dressed champagne drinker in the media and racecourse publicity – It can put off the man-in-the-street who doesn’t want to dress up and/or is unable to afford to. My arguement is there should

also

be advertising aimed at this group of "new people".

I don’t judge people for what they wear (either way). It is after all, what is in the mind and heart that matter. As a former punk, Vivienne Westwood has a place in my heart too! Well, may be I did judge that twit who used to do the fashion at Royal Ascot, criticising evreyone. Much better this year without him. Now he did make me switch over to At The Races.

Do like your style Eliza, would that be a 50’s influence? Only thing I have against your attire is if you were in the stand and poked my eye out with those feathers!

Some members of this forum don’t come in to the "Lounge". Wonder if this thread would get more feed back in "Horse Racing"?

Ha ha. Why ‘Former’ punk? I consider myself in that tradition actually. Defintely my music taste and until very recently you would have been likely to find me in an orange wig and purple leather trousers!! So I am I guess a ‘former’ punk too.
Some fifties influence; but more 40s and 80s would be my style influences. Punk was about dressing up not down; and I think the whole Sex Pistols, The Damned, and Adam and the Ants thing a little more British in terms of theatre quality and style than ‘Green Day’!!!

I think the problem is if Racing markets itself to the lowest common denominator it will lose much of its ‘special’ quality. To some extent that is what has happened. We are likely to find ‘curry and beer’ nights and awful bands at the races and while it may have boosted crowds temporarily it hasn’t done much to keep them – racing became the sideshow to a piss up and the dress code ‘bingo hall’. I think it is better marketed at niche groups. I think a cool rockabilly band and a burlesque act would get a more sophistciated crowd that would actaully take an interest in the horse racing too. And that crowd DO dress up too.

My friend Ceri used to work at Bernard Llewellyns yard and is a good friend of Emily Jones the ladies jockey and commentator. Now Ceri works in Fashion in London. We have lately brought quite a few friends to the races who had never sampled it before and many are from a fashion/punk/rockabilly/heavy rock background. As they are people who have already ‘rejected’ the mainstream of lowest common denominator culture; they generally are a little more sophisticated in terms of what they want from entertainment and as such present a more likely ‘recruit’ to Racing. Racing IS sophisticated on many levels – the betting, breeding, form, history, fashion etc etc all have an intellectual interest. Many I have encountered in Racing are from these backgrounds – such as yourself; my partner and many of his friends; myself; Simon Nott who many of you will know from Turf TV etc.

Ceri’s partner is a drummer in the rockabilly band ‘The Burns’. He also ran the Trailerpussy show at the Purple Turtle in Camden:
http://www.myspace.com/trailerpussy

Rockabilly; burlesque, and poker. 17 000 plus friends. More than Cheltenham or Ascot racecourse put together on facebook. A cool, fashionable, sophisticated crowd with an interest in vintage fashion. If we got ten per cent of them intrigued – and they have become interested already in the poker and fashion and mohitos scene – we’d be doing well because they’d likely remain interested.

So lowest common denominator is not what we need – but we do need diversity and niche groups aimed at. I would like to see more ethnic groups in advertising too – and again not the token faces which are actually so middle class they may aswell be white! Remember a few months back there was this huge uproar about how the countryside was racist? Well I hope I killed two birds with one stone there by dispelling that ridiculous media myth and taking some of the Newport Bangladeshi community racing!
http://www.lovetheraces.com/voices-of-t … e_tab=blog

Our latest Voice of the Races is Trudi Mosiamo a black musician and good journalist:

http://www.lovetheraces.com/voices-of-t … e_tab=blog

And Racing certainly markets itself to families for casual family days out – I have never seen so many children at the races as when at Newbury for Arabian day; and many seemed surprised that racing is free for children anyway. Anyway good job HH Hamdan!! And of course a day at the races doesn’t get much more culturally diverse than this:

http://www.lovetheraces.com/voices-of-t … e_tab=blog

I would certainly like to see more racecourse initiatives liasing with schools rather than leaving the Maktoums having to do it all!!!

We can only do so much at lovetheraces though. The Racing media hasn’t it has to be said been a great deal of help to what it is trying to acheive. I did notice that Tom Kerr’s piece in the RP about a 16 year old racegoer William Kedjanyi was very good the other day though; so perhaps they are following our lead at last. Got a way to go to catch me though can’t be many racing journalists who have managed to get a punk band like Mad Sin in an article!! Glad you appreciate what it is we are trying to achieve; there is a great deal of unecessary criticism and cynicism about what are gift horse efforts to be honest!!.

http://www.lovetheraces.com/voices-of-t … e_tab=blog

The whole idea of elitism is a misplaced one. I think again its come from the USA and their abhorrence of what they see as a class system. Britain is best when and because we come together; and sadly what sometimes now keeps us apart is the myth that well dressed people are snobs and nice events and places are only for posh people. We must never play to that one; because everyone in racing knows that racing is the ultimate example of why that is untrue. The social mix at the races when we have the common bond of horses is wonderful. A struggling public school educated trainer cannot afford to be a snob because the cheeky chappie with the cockney accent next to him could be his future owner or the west country accent from a gypsy next to him turn out to be the chap he buys a Cheltenham festival winner from!!

But I also think we should avoid trying to go the ‘Yoof tv’ way. I would rather have one Tommo than a thousand Russell Brands or inverted regional snobs. And of all the racing media people; Tommo has not only been the one with the most common touch and hard working with the public; but also the most supportive of lovetheraces. He is Racing’s greatest asset!!

Thanks for the input Gingertipster!! xx

[ElizaVoiceoftheRaces]

QUOTE GraysonColumn

"Horses give life, when all else fails. Nothing shifts depression quicker than being near them. Oh, and racing’s far more morally and socially edifying – as well as being tons cheaper – than the Premiership. That’s been proven scientifically by scientists with red pens and massive slapheads and labcoats and everything."

I think that is one of the best ways I have heard racing’s ‘wow’ factor expressed Jeremy."Horses give life, when all else fails" wow.

I think it can be particularly true in dark times: people can be uplifted by a racehorse; especially one who overcomes adversity. But yes just being near them is special. It is another reason I will never accept as genuine those who are not interested (those that condemn racing) as animal lovers.

Can’t agree with part of the bit about scientists though ha ha we aren’t all slapheads!!!

Aaronizneez;
QUOTE:
"I’m most comfortable wearing shorts and a casual shirt in the summer and jeans and a suitable coat in the winter. As someone once quoted "Why not be oneself? That is the whole secret of a successful appearance. If one is a greyhound, why try to look like a Pekingese?” As with a lot of things,cars, houses etc clothes seem to be perceived as symbols of what people are or aspire to be and can sometimes be a barrier to understanding what type of people individuals actually are"

That is fine; but be careful not to judge others. It is that which is the barrier to understanding who people really are. Judging a book by its cover works two ways: just because something is well packaged does not mean it isn’t just as worthy inside!!

I think the problem is there can be a little inverted snobbery when it comes to dressing up. The assumption that anyone who is somehow ‘false’ or there is the ‘who do they think they are?" factor if they are dressed up. I do not look down on those who dress casually; and in my experience few who dress up do – though perhaps some who are casual feel they have to justify themselves through condemning those who are dressed well.

So a few personal perspectives that may give you something to consider re your assertion:

I spend most of my working life in a lab coat. When I go out I want to dress well!! Perhaps it is more a part of the feminine psyche although women frequently dress casually too.

However; my previous job meant that I spent most of my working life in the world’s finest lingerie and hosiery and six inch heels!! Coupled with that I felt it was important to keep the image of the company (Agent Provocateur) up by dressing extremely well for arriving at and leaving from work. Ha ha then when I got home I wanted casual clothes and Ugg boots!!!

When working at the RGS I had to look good when dealing with the press. A bored journalist with little interest in an expedition will be far more interested when confronted with a press officer in red lipstick a power suit and seam and heel than the dowdy hippychick he may have been expecting!!

When travelling in remote areas as I have done one has to wear practical clothing. So when in the jungles of Borneo or the Atacama desert or in the arctic again I had to dress appropriately; which is not necessarily very ‘feminine’.

Whenever I have encountered cultures in any of these areas they have their own distinctive dress; particularly for ceremonial occasions. Beauty and aesthetics is an important part of human culture in dress. It is only the last thirty years or so we have moved away from that; largely because of American corporate marketing and attitudes pushed around the world via US media. This is not who ‘we’ are; it is who they want us to be. ("What if God was one of us just a slob like one of us?" Ewwww mark me down for the dark side ha ha)
We as ‘British’ people are more about cream teas than costa coffee; more about tweed caps than baseball caps. More about respect for others than marching in somewhere with a baseball cap, LA Rams t shirt and sweaty trainers and shorts demanding to be served in a loud voice wherever we go in the world. The mix of that US attitude to life and UK football and lager lout culture has made us the scourge of Europe; and I do try to behave and dress more respectful when I travel abroad; especially at important occasions.

All my life I have had to think about what I wear and the message it conveys. The way one dresses can give one confidence and authority; or make one comfortable and relaxed. Sometimes you may want one; sometimes the opposite. What is the ‘real me’? Well I think one learns to develop one’s own style; that one feels good in but is also relaxed in. You are what you wear some say. I am afraid I am not a white lab coat; or a person who feels good in casual wear generally. I don’t feel good about myself if I don’t make an effort; and that in my experience makes for grumpiness!!

So one dresses for the occasion to how one wants to feel; or for what one is doing practically. So for example; if I am ‘in the mood’ I am going to spend some time getting ready and be head to toe in AP. If I am not; I don’t feel confident enough to get the most out of the experience. It has nothing to do with the man; it’s for me.

Likewise I feel awful in high st clothing. I would not enjoy a day at the races in even quite dressy high st brands. It just isn’t me. Having worked in fashion industry I have a great appreciation for the work and effort that goes into designing and creating something beautiful; I appreciate drape and structure and line and texture etc and I can see poor quality mass production a mile off. And that is not to mention all the ethical issues associated with clothing designed to be disposable produced often through dreadful working conditions and eco unfriendly materials. If you are happy in that sort of thing then it does not bother me but as I have had that ‘education’ then I am not.

There is another factor. In a crowded bar at Ascot or Cheltenham when people are well dressed strangely enough they are very careful with their drinks!! In bars where jeans are the norm – which has its place – they are not!!
I also am attracted to well dressed men. I think most women are. And I think you will find most men like well dressed women. I think that is natural.

Dressing up is not about being ‘snobby’ as it is sometimes perceived. When I go to a wedding I want to pay my respects by honouring the couple by looking as good as I can. When I go to the races I consider it personally a similar thing. I think the races are an occasion – particularly Cheltenham and Ascot etc.

This picture is absolutely me; but I don’t mind you wearing jeans! Variety is good; find me at a gig in torn jeans and I will drink a Newcastle Brown with you; if I am dressed like this of course I’d like a glass of champagne! And thankfully as you can see Cheltenham very kindly provided it!!

So I hope very much that racing keeps its association with fashion. I cannot think of anything better to make Racing fashionable!! And if that happens it is the best way to boost crowds; silence the knockers; and help overcome many of the problems that the sport has been presented with in recent years.

Oh; and as you correctly identified I am not a ‘slow comfortable screw’ kind of a girl!! Yes some courses I have been to are not attracting the ‘sophisticated’ crowd. From the point of view of future sponsors and people likely to become owners etc they need to be. Or that target audience will continue to go to the Yacht club; Shoreditch burlesque lounge or shisha bar; or Learned Society or theatre social event for their cocktails instead !!

Look forward to your input re the questionnaire and reading the contributions of others. Thank you all for the time and effort you have put in so far and hope you don’t mind me giving my input on some things as we go along. xx[attachment=0:4cc8ou93]304529_10150268777963940_150176113939_7775902_4405911_n.jpg[/attachment:4cc8ou93]

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