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Footballers all over the country pay for the privilege of playing for their team. I would imagine that most players below Level 10 Leagues (non-league Step 6) in England pay to play.
Many athletes pay a sub to run for their club.
Nick Faldo would have had to pay the entry fee for the Open Championship like anyone else. Possibly not for certain other tournaments but I’m sure he would have to for the Open.
Why should you get paid "appearance money" – if your horse is good enough you get the prize money, as well as the reflected glory of the efforts and hard work of your horse and trainer.
Do you put in the same hours of training and hard work as a professional footballer or golfer or tennis player? I suspect not.
You are not seriously comparing racehourse ownership with the efforts of professional sportsmen are you?
You said
"Don’t give me the answer ‘If you don’t like it, don’t do it’ "
but I am afraid that is the only logical response that can be given to your argument.
Several time in your post you say
"I have to"
pay for this and that – no you do not have to!!
It is a choice you made – presumably you looked at the implications before making the decision – in which case you knew what you were getting into.
When there are an increasing number of people in this country losing their jobs and struggling to make ends meet, I must admit I find it hard to feel any sympathy for your argument.Racehorse ownership is a luxury not a necessity.
You aren’t an MP looking for an alternate income stream are you?
Or how about becoming an MP then perhaps you can claim the cost of your racehorse ownership on expenses
As you are not the athlete in question (the horse is) I don’t think you have any right to "appearance money." Horses themselves do get appearance money for particular races and all Sunday racing – this money however does not go back to the individual horse in the form of carrots/polos but goes into the pocket of the owner (small percentage to trainer) so I think you are adequately provided for?
I thought the paying of apprearance money was quite common, didn’t either Denman or Kauto get it not last season but the season before at Wincanton?
Perhaps you may what to run your horses at a gaff track on a Sunday. It works out at about two to three hundred quid so I understand….betting shop fodder and all that….
It’s come up on the forum before and I think it was AP who filled in the blanks….
Gift horse must get appearance money, because thats about the only way
he can repay the faith his owners must have in him! If you are "Happy" from
the seven dwarfs then i am "Grumpy" as i cant see him ever winning a race! What is your horses rating Happy?The appearance money for a race on a Sunday is £140 and the payment is split between owner, trainer, jockey and stable staff in the exact same proportions as apply for prize money.
It used to be more when Sunday racing first came in, but I’m fairly sure that’s the current figure – it certainly was the last time I had a Sunday runner, last October.
Personally, I always hand over my share to the stable staff that accompany the horse, as I’m uncomfortable about them having to work on what would normally be their only day off – but that’s purely my choice.
Whilst I don’t agree with line taken by the original poster, I think it’s fair to say that owning a racehorse is a slightly different hobby to playing golf, or sailing, or flying – things that might cost about the same. If I spend my money on golf, sailing, flying, no commercial entity is going to benefit in the way that a racecourse does from my hobby and the public aren;t going to be paying to watch my efforts.
But as I see it, that difference is recognised by the existence of prize money – I did once play golf and the only reward I ever collected was a cartoon print for finishing third in a golf society greensome event!
Past attempts at funding a broader appearance money scheme have failed and the current system for Sundays is intended only to compensate for the extra costs involved in having a runner on a Sunday – mainly staff overtime and higher transport charges.
AP
- Total Posts 17716
Appearance money for owners – now I’ve heard everything
Owners aren’t comparable, in any way, shape or form, to footballers, but athletes (who aren’t even considered professional in their chosen industry), golfers and even darts players have numerous expenses to account for – namely travelling. Sponsorship obviously helps in this respect, but again their situation bares little resemblance to that of a racehorse owner and so drawing convenient parallels is utterly pointless.
Please don’t apply to be a representative on a BHA rebranding committee – we’re all ****** if you do.
Please don’t apply to be a representative on a BHA rebranding committee – we’re all ****** if you do.
With the wisdom of this Brian and Ben shi’ite, we are anyway…
Footballers do not pay for the privelidge of playing for their team.
No but football club owners do pay for professional footballers to play for their team, coaches to train them etc, etc, etc in much the same way as a horse owner pays professionals for the same sort of service. I dont think Roman Abramovich gets paid an attendance fee either. And at least you can have a pint at the races, unlike that bloke who owned (possibly still does) newcastle united.
From a Gambling perspective it would make no difference if a "Horse" should recieve an appearance fee, which ultimately would be given to the horse via the owner (before you say a carrot Equitrack, i beat you)!
I remember in the 90"s having the occassional bet on Golf, until i realised
certain Golfers were recieving 6 figure appearance fees in competitions
where the top prize was less!! No incentive to win then! Punter loses
before the "race" has started! Now when "The Ante-post King" finds time
between his studies, he is partial to Unleashing his trusty G5 300yds
down the fairway, he will then play a 7 wood a further 200yds with a hint of fade onto the green, he will then attempt to putt for an eagle and miss, so
a birdy will do then, no misses again, still gets his par! The moral of this story is after my first 2 shots i"m thinking about turning Pro, and all the
appearance money i could get then after 3 putting I"m still thinking O.k
i aint good enough to win prize money but i could still take the appearance money and run!! by the way i would settle for £50!This question revolves around the issue of power and williness to use it.
The horses are the product. If the horses don’t turn up there is no race meeting, nobody can bet on it, nobody can earn a living from it. A completely different situation from many of the sports mentioned above. Racecourses, on course bookmakers, caterers and others would eventually go broke if the horses did not turn up.
In many other
professional spectator sports
there have been battles between the owners of the facilities and organisations eg football clubs and Football League versus the players over the maximum wage.
In horse racing there have been only very minor skirmishes eg last years Yarmouth prize money protest.
If racehorses owners had ever been an organised determined group prepared to take on Racecourses I am sure that there would be appearance money and plenty of it. The fact is they never have been. So the Sunday appearance money scheme is just a token to overcome minor resistance to Sunday race meetings.
There is the argument that racehorse owners need racecourses and vice versa. However these days one group is making substantial profits out of it and the other group is paying very large sums for the privilege. Sums that make the Levy almost irrelevant.
There is a unhealthy lack of balance there.
This question revolves around the issue of power and williness to use it.
The horses are the product. If the horses don’t turn up there is no race meeting, nobody can bet on it, nobody can earn a living from it. A completely different situation from many of the sports mentioned above. Racecourses, on course bookmakers, caterers and others would eventually go broke if the horses did not turn up.
In many other
professional spectator sports
there have been battles between the owners of the facilities and organisations eg football clubs and Football League versus the players over the maximum wage.
In horse racing there have been only very minor skirmishes eg last years Yarmouth prize money protest.
If racehorses owners had ever been an organised determined group prepared to take on Racecourses I am sure that there would be appearance money and plenty of it. The fact is they never have been. So the Sunday appearance money scheme is just a token to overcome minor resistance to Sunday race meetings.
There is the argument that racehorse owners need racecourses and vice versa. However these days one group is making substantial profits out of it and the other group is paying very large sums for the privilege. Sums that make the Levy almost irrelevant.
There is a unhealthy lack of balance there.
Racehorse owners will never be that motivated as there are so many different factions and any "appearance" money would only really effect a few members of this community.
Bookmakers do a similar service as racehorse owners (without course bookies there’d be no SP, no SP means no betting on the racing and no betting means substantially reduced prize money) yet they have to pay four times the regular admission fee. If the bookmakers have to then so should the owners, trainers, jockeys, stewards etc/
In all forms of amateur rugby union and cricket that I am involved in,the players pay match fees in order to participate. This is how it should be in the glorious British tradition.
When it comes to horses,all of us who are owners, regularly and consistently subsidise the sport ,for us and others to enjoy. Paticularly in National Hunt racing which is my particular love. I dearly wish though, that I could get a horse who would be worthy of appearance money,and after years of investing in the sport I would thoroughly deserve it. There seems to be a feeling on here that all racehorse owners are multi millionaires who should pay for the privelege of entertaining the public and the bookies. For me I would dearly like to break even ,but it ain`t easy.Happy,
The ROA website only lists weekday races – there are plenty of options for ‘smaller owners with average ability horses’ every Sunday if appearance money is a motivating factor.
So far as I know, anybody can join the ROA – the only thing that has the 100% limit is the acquisition of a special pass that provides free admission to the majority of meetings even if you don’t have a runner.
OK Happy – let’s agree to differ on the merits of appearance money.
For arguments sake, let’s say your case in favour of appearance money is accepted, let me ask you a couple of questions.
What level of appearance money would you expect? Presumably you would accept the need for a sliding scale, whereby lower grade races attract a smaller payment.
More importantly, where would the appearance money come from?
Owners pretty much accept that they will not make a profit on their racing unless they have a horse competing regularly at the top table.
The prize money /return for owners debate is both long running & well documented & I have no intention of re-opening it here.
What I would say is that owners largely accept the situation because a) they enjoy running horses & b) there are a few little perks along the way that help to offset the fact that financial returns are low.
These "perks" are slowly being chipped away at by many courses & I do think that courses need to take care not to devalue the ownership experience so much that the bigger issue of prize money does actually become more of an issue.
I shall list some of the areas that I consider "perks" that are being eroded. Most will sound trivial – which I like to think is the argument for not eroding them!
Prizes awarded
– it is becoming common place now to receive nothing other than a framed picture of the winner or a bottle of fizz. Cups & shields can be of low intrinsic value but its always nice to get one.
Owners & Trainers bars
– some courses are now combining the O&T bar with the members bar. Good idea in terms of utilisation I am sure but what it usually means is that the bar is no different to any other and so the owner feels less valued.
O&T viewing areas
Most courses provide one & they are of varying suitability/convenience. However, many courses fail to control them such that on busy days they become fully occupied by non O&Ts long before the off. O&Ts arriving necessarily just before the off (having saddled etc) are left with nowhere to view from.
The much discussed cup of coffee!
I know that it irks some that owners moan about not having a cup of coffee provided but surely it is not too much to ask! Nobody is asking for a free bar but surely an urn of hot water & some tea & coffee doesnt cost much….certainly not the £2 per cup that some courses ask for!
I should add that there are some courses where facilities are excellent & include provision of all of the above & in some cases a meal – Ayr, Haydock, Doncaster and Aintree deserve particular praise.
I know that the above sound trivial & some will think that they are unimportant but if they are completely eroded & if prize money continues to offer little incentive to race then the question of "why do we do it" will then be even sharper in focus. I believe that owners currently do it because of the overall "ownership experience" .Any devaluation of that experience will, in my view, be detrimental to the sport in the long term.
I think that is an excellent response David and the points you raised are not trivial.
I do believe it is beholden upon the courses to provide decent facilities for the owners, that should include a dedicated room, viewing area and free light refreshments. Also some decent, ideally hot, food which should be free or, if not free, heavily subsidised.
That should be a realistic expectation as a minimum.
I suppose the only time that could become a problem is where there is a large syndicate and clearly numbers would have to be restricted.
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