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A couple of months on from when I last asked and in light of more results, have you changed your mind Joni?
Will Frankel’s fee go up, down or stay the same for the next breeding season?
It should stay the same. There are two other crops (those born in 2015 and 2016) waiting to be raced.The big decision can wait until the end of 2018
Will be interesting to see what the sales prices will be like later in the year and next spring (obviously, a separate issue) Be interesting to see which trainer gets a handle on these horses, Gosden has had his fair share of them. Camelot will be getting a lot of hype soon as will a few other Galileo sires like Australia. Juddmonte also have to promote Kingman who might be a hard sale due, like some Invincible Spirit horses being a bit too prone to injury.
Cracksman headed Capri inside the furlong pole, he was clearly in the lead, as can be seen from the ATR side-on replay and as noted by Gary O’Brien, but Capri got back up to win.
“Let us see how they tumble by the end of the year”.
You sound like you’d be delighted if they all broke down and ended up on a meat wagon by Christmas. But maybe I am just talking “sentimental crap”.
So what if Joni and other posters sometimes get
and 
over their favourite horses. Otherwise they might as well watch virtual racing, or F1. And – though I’m not really a Flat fan – it seems to me that they do have the reasoning to back up their posts. 
Agreed bozlike
There is no one more fair in analysis and gracious in defeat than Joni and I just wanted to copy over something I posted on his DLAP Thread earlier. Cracksman will go on to prove himself if not this year then next but take nothing away from Capri he was the winner and we should celebrate that.
It’s a known fact that Joni is a mad keen Frankel fan like myself and many others on this Thread which was set up by Joni to celebrate Frankel and discuss the merits of his progeny and their progress and as we know horses have a way of always proving us wrong, as Joni says the story isn’t over.
Oh and by the way Twice Over I think it’s up to the owners whether Seven Heavens should be gelded or not!!
From DLAP Thread
@Joni
So unlucky that Cracksman went down by such a short margin to Capri yesterday, but confident that he will win a Group race before the end of the Season. Have yet to see the race so can’t really comment on it as yet but have read plenty on the other threads and can’t believe how negative one or two posters can be about these horses that run their hearts out for our benefit.
100% behind what you said Joni. Jac 
Things turn out best for those who make the best of how things turn out...Cracksman headed Capri inside the furlong pole, he was clearly in the lead, as can be seen from the ATR side-on replay and as noted by Gary O’Brien, but Capri got back up to win.
Yes, but, had Cracksman being in a better position up the field before coming into the straight, his sustained run might have got there, if he did not need to start as soon as Smullen had to start the pushing. Smullen gave the horse too much to do , he had to start working on Cracksman well before going into the straight , its some wonder that he got so close.Cracksman was prominent and got the rail, fine ride by Seamie.
A couple of months on from when I last asked and in light of more results, have you changed your mind Joni?
Will Frankel’s fee go up, down or stay the same for the next breeding season?
Bearing in mind he had 2 of the first 4 in the Derby I would say there is a fair chance the fee will go up LS3. He has plenty running at Group level and the suspicion is that they are getting better with age and experience.
"this perfect mix of poetry and destruction, this glory of rhythm, power and majesty: the undisputed champion of the world!!!"
I don’t normally post but enjoy reading. Hope my comment is taken in good spirit.
Some of the heated debate about how poor or great Frankel’s progeny is, picking through each individual horse etc, appears to be ignoring the fact that records are kept of these things… There is a list of sires by prize money in Britain and Ireland after all, it shows Frankel as one of six sires over the £million for the season, despite having only 2 and 3 year olds in training. http://bloodstock.racingpost.com/statistic/leading_lists.sd#leadingListsTabs=top_flat_racing_sires
Galileo stands alone of course, but Frankel is one of the only other sires giving him a run for his money in terms of £s per runner, excluding outliers like Pour Moi and Scat Daddy. Don’t forget this list doesn’t include international races and thus Soul Stirring (easily Frankel’s biggest winner) is not included.
If I was looking at that list I would wonder how Dubawi can command 250k when only delivering half a million more prize money than Frankel with 2.5 times more runners, and presumably many more mature runners in the big all ages races. I would guess that for the moment 125K looks sustainable for Frankel, but we shall see. To look at another example, Sea The Stars is also 125k, has all ages runners and is well below Frankel in the prize money table, and has less international success this year too.
The big disappointment has to be that as things stand there is no single Frankel colt that you would look at as an obvious sire or at least an in-demand sire, but I am not an expert in these things.
Of course it goes without saying that it is still way too early to tell. You would have to wait until the end of the 2018 season to draw any conclusions.
Great post Biskybat (and may I say what a fabulous name you have!!!! Where does it come from?) Great to read those stats and I hope you post more often. Happily the offensive posts from yesterday have been removed along with the author! I’m all for debate but lets keep it friendly hey?! Thanks again for that excellent contribution.
"this perfect mix of poetry and destruction, this glory of rhythm, power and majesty: the undisputed champion of the world!!!"
I would make one other observation. I am not an expert on breeding by any means, and I certainly don’t have the time or inclination to look through all the mares sent to Frankel in his first year – but I would suspect he was considered a speed influence and was sent mares accordingly. It may well be the case that he is more of an old-school Galileo-type stamina influence, which would in turn explain why so many of his runners appear to want 1m 4f plus.
If that becomes the case or more importantly if the industry decides that is the case, then the type of mares he is sent will change and you might see more speedy types emerge over the next few years. It takes time for people to figure out how best to breed to a particular sire. Another reason why it is far too early to tell.
Great points. Just skimming few at the top of the ratings you had sprinters like African Rose (Fair Eva), Sand Vixen (Dubai Castle) and Lady Of The Desert (Queen Kindly) but certainly lots of milers and middle-distance types as well. Will be interesting to see if that changes.
PS – I promise I want to move on but just a word to Trip, Boz and Greenasgrass to say thank you for defending me yesterday. Much appreciated.
"this perfect mix of poetry and destruction, this glory of rhythm, power and majesty: the undisputed champion of the world!!!"
Very nice performance from Oshayger at Deauville today winning a conditions event as easy as you like against some useful yardsticks. Interesting that he was allowed to stride out. Hopefully he has a nice future…..
"this perfect mix of poetry and destruction, this glory of rhythm, power and majesty: the undisputed champion of the world!!!"
A disappointing day of course. Many are now doubting this horse as a stallion and some are ridiculing the thread. I’ll keep it going. This is a marathon not a sprint…..
"this perfect mix of poetry and destruction, this glory of rhythm, power and majesty: the undisputed champion of the world!!!"
Sadler’s Wells offspring won a first group 1 in 1986
took him over 10 years to sire Galileo in 1998Galileo sired Frankel 5 years after siring his first group 1 winner
Plenty of time for Frankel to sire a Champion Joni, keep the faith
Blackbeard to conquer the World
Sadler’s Wells offspring won a first group 1 in 1986
took him over 10 years to sire Galileo in 1998Galileo sired Frankel 5 years after siring his first group 1 winner
Plenty of time for Frankel to sire a Champion Joni, keep the faith
Whatever about siring champion stallions, Sadler’s Wells made a great start at stud. His first crop were foals of 1986 and included 6 Group 1 winners from a book of just 65 mares. They included two colts who dead-heated in the Dewhurst, also In The Wings and Old Vic who won the Prix du Jockey Club and the Irish Derby.
A disappointing day of course. Many are now doubting this horse as a stallion and some are ridiculing the thread. I’ll keep it going. This is a marathon not a sprint…..
Joni I’m so sad today for Eminent today and his performance in the Eclipse and for all the things that have been said about him on the Eclipse Thread really not fair to blame the horse and he really ran too freely when he came out of the stalls that SDS was fighting with him for several furlongs, why didn’t he just let him have his head and run his race. If you look at the very beginning of the race you will see what I mean, then Eminent got so angry he thought he might take a bite out of Decorated Knight, his mind was obviously elsewhere. Ironic that jocked off Jim won the race after a dream run down the outside on Ulysses it was a brilliant run and just got lucky to hang on from battling Barney Roy.
This is the best Thread on TRF whatever anyone says and it will remain so for many years to come following Frankel and his progeny as they themselves become sires, Frankel will make us wait and like Nathan said it could take up to 5 years for him to produce anything like himself but it WILL happen and we want to hear it here first..Go Joni, Go Frankel, we will all keep the faith with you
JacThings turn out best for those who make the best of how things turn out...Frankel has been rather disappointing so far when you consider the stellar books of mares he’s had, normally only available to literally just a handful of already proven world class stallions like Galileo, Dubai, Deep Impact and Tapit.
If you look at past outstanding colts who went on to become outstanding stallions, horses like Hyperion, Nearco, Ribot, Bold Ruler, well they started churning out top flight winners straight away, and they would have covered less than 50 mares a season.
Unfortunately, there have been even more outstanding champions who’ve disappointed at stud, just think of Citation, Tulloch, Brigadier Gerard, Spectacular Bid, Secretariat (although he did become champion broodmare sire one year), Dayjur, Dancing Brave etc.
Of last year’s first season sires, Nathaniel and Helmet have impressed more, when you consider the class of mares they got.Thanks Jac and Nath – really appreciated. There are plenty of highs and lows and he is not quite ruling the world but I too am enjoying the journey (for the most part!!)
"this perfect mix of poetry and destruction, this glory of rhythm, power and majesty: the undisputed champion of the world!!!"
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