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Who owns the racing data

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  • #701
    empty walletempty wallet
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    • Total Posts 1631

    IE: entries, race results, breeding information etc

    (Edited by empty wallet at 12:11 am on Jan. 16, 2007)

    #35905
    wit
    Participant
    • Total Posts 2152

    An owner is a person who has property.

    Property is the exclusive right at law to possess, use and dispose of a thing (tangible or intangible, visible or invisible, real or personal).

    A fact is a state of things or an event.

    There is no exclusive right in the fact that horse Z is entered in a race, or that he wins that race, or that his mother is X and his father is Y.

    But if you invest time and/or money collecting facts together and/or verifying them, then you can claim an exclusive right – ie property – in your collection, or database.    You can then stop others from using your collection.

    What was decided in William Hill v BHB was that drawing up a list of horses in a race was something separate from collecting and verifying the contents of the database from which that list was drawn.    

    "The list is different in character from a mere list of the gathered-in information.   It is a list of the horses the BHB have accepted as qualifying to race… [ie a newly-occurred fact]"

    <br>http://www.bailii.org/cgi-bin/markup.cgi?doc=/ew/cases/EWCA/Civ/2005/863.html&query=william+hill+bhb&method=all

    best regards

    wit<br>

    (Edited by wit at 7:58 am on Jan. 16, 2007)

    #35906
    empty walletempty wallet
    Member
    • Total Posts 1631

    Thanks wit

    <br>never  read what the Will Hills case was about at the time it was going off

    <br>I’m just trying to figure out why the racing industry does not make more use selling  racing info directly to the general public to create revenue

    IE: sectional time info, horse weight etc

    <br>I know it takes investment, but surely long term these things would reap rewards

    (Edited by empty wallet at 11:47 am on Jan. 16, 2007)

    #35907
    robert99robert99
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    • Total Posts 897

    Empty,

    See the last page of the Horse Body Weights thread.<br>The industry seems to be just sleepwalking through possible revenue sources. There seems to be no one to set a lead and make things happen.

    #35908
    empty walletempty wallet
    Member
    • Total Posts 1631

    Quote: from robert99 on 12:10 pm on Jan. 16, 2007[br].<br>The industry seems to be just sleepwalking through possible revenue sources. There seems to be no one to set a lead and make things happen.

    <br>read it elsewhere robert ;)   on reading it and the above is mainly why i started this thread

    Just can’t understand why the powers that be are not using  the data punters are chasing to create a revenue stream

    (Edited by empty wallet at 12:36 pm on Jan. 16, 2007)

    #35909
    davidjohnson
    Member
    • Total Posts 4491

    deleted

    (Edited by davidjohnson at 12:44 pm on Jan. 16, 2007)

    #35910
    Zebra
    Participant
    • Total Posts 74

    To try and cut a very long story short, racing has been down this path before. The BHB decided that selling data rights to bookmakers was the way to fund racing and campaigned to abolish the Levy. The Government agreed to do so and the BHB sought to extract money from bookmakers in the UK and overseas in return for a licence of data rights. that led to the William Hill case which said that the BHB didn’t have any rights in the data to sell. As a result, racing ended up campaigning for the Levy to stay and, just before Christmas, the Government agreed to this

    #35911
    empty walletempty wallet
    Member
    • Total Posts 1631

    What i’m talking about is the racing industry selling it’s info directly to punters not bookies or to be creamed off by a 3rd party  

    <br>

    (Edited by empty wallet at 1:58 pm on Jan. 16, 2007)

    #35912
    Zebra
    Participant
    • Total Posts 74

    OK there are 2 reasons (at least) why that wouldn’t work. (1) If punters had to pay for racing data, it would mean that a proportion would instead choose to bet on things other than racing – so a counterproductive route for racing to take (2) racing probably can’t control access to race data either practically (because there’s always going to be someone (probably an offshore site) that will obtain the data and make it available for free); and legally (because of anti-monopoly laws – see another case Attheraces v BHB).

    #35913
    empty walletempty wallet
    Member
    • Total Posts 1631

    Thanks Zebra

    I think (might be wrong) that a lot of punters would pay for the right info, just look at Timeform, Raceform etc

    2, the legal stuff is beyond me tbh

    #35914
    Zebra
    Participant
    • Total Posts 74

    Yes some people will pay for Timeform (now owned by Betfair) and Raceform (owned by the Racing Post) but it’s not racing that owns that data and the amounts punters pay for this information is a tiny fraction of racing’s funding needs

    #35915
    empty walletempty wallet
    Member
    • Total Posts 1631

    Just seems to me something very wrong when an industry has  to rely on handouts from another industry

    Surely something can be done, clean up the sport to attract more sponsors, put up entry fees, charge for info where you can etc

    Why not invest in sectional timing equipment and sell that data, why not invest in weighing horses and sell that data, add the £5 back on to my RUK subs so i can view replays

    <br>Trouble is racing in cohoots with others want to take punters for all they’ve got and people like me who would be willing to pay, won’t stand being shafted

    <br>

    (Edited by empty wallet at 3:39 pm on Jan. 16, 2007)

    #35916
    empty walletempty wallet
    Member
    • Total Posts 1631

    I can go to site like DRF, pay for PDF Past Performances etc and get all the info i need  

    I am betting more and more on US racing because of this, i would also bet more on racing in HK if racing was shown on tv  and markets were availble for the same reason

    <br>Racing is losing it’s customers in part due to lack of info

    (Edited by empty wallet at 3:47 pm on Jan. 16, 2007)

    #35917
    racinggirlukracinggirluk
    Member
    • Total Posts 232

    There is free info on the net, you just got to look for it…they mainly advertise the ones you need to pay for

    #35918
    Seagull
    Member
    • Total Posts 1708

    Weatherbys have built up a massive database regards breeding and they i.m.o. should be able to charge for this information.

    The on course bookie chappies were thinking of trying to charge for the actual starting prices as they thought as they were the ones that actually decided and marked up what they were that they owned a copyright to them.

    As to such things as results and stats companies such as RSB and Raceform claim a copyright as they compiled them.

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