- This topic has 91 replies, 39 voices, and was last updated 9 years, 1 month ago by
.
- Posts
Stilvi, you need to read the thread title properly. It is: Which Festival race would you get rid of?
It is not: Which Festival race would you get rid of? (all responses must contain reasoning that is acceptable to Stilvi).
Personally, I love bumpers. I find even the most modest of them interesting and the ones held at the respective Festivals are superb.
Removing them would be ridiculous; they’ve been a part of The Cheltenham Festival for 25 years now and have been fought out by some outstanding horses.
Mike
All of them, this all roads lead to Cheltenham and to hell with the other 7 months has got to stop
ah well not long till the quick horses are back
Thank God
Not very original I know, but it’s the Ryanair for me – it just dilutes the fields for the two most important chases of the meeting.
One thing is for certain at Cheltenham there will be quite a few fatalities
Yes, Michael. Probably there could be a few fatalities. But let’s not get too overexcited about it. I’m still hoping of a fatality free Festival. However with roughly 500 horses or even more lining up over the 4 days, a lot of bad things can happen. Just wish horse and rider all the best.
I never understood why you’d get rid of any races on big meetings, spreads out a little fame and glory for horses not at the top of the top, more happy owners and everyone involved?
For some punters a little less attractive. But it is in my eyes a general good (and I am a selective fan, but if one knows any connections of a deselected race, I’ll watch and maybe punt).Best Wishes
SilkHere we are, the Friday before Cheltenham and Vroum Vroum Mag is still entered in SIX different races.
That’s a sure sign that there is too much emphasis on quantity, rather than quality.
I don’t like Cross-Country races and the Festival ran perfectly well for a lot of years without the JLT, Ryanair and the Fred Winter. I like the bumper, Moon Racer was a big winner for me at 12/1 a couple of years ago but generally I find the bumpers really hard to predict and wouldn’t punt on them very often. It still hurts that I lumped on one of Nicky Henderson’s debutants about 20 years ago, on a tip from a man who knew the owner. It was backed right down to 13/8 Fav, and promptly got thrashed in 4th place.
There was a near perfection about the three day festival and I feel 20 races in the meeting is probably enough.
Thanks for the good crack. Time for me to move on. Be lucky.
Here we are, the Friday before Cheltenham and Vroum Vroum Mag is still entered in SIX different races.
Isn’t she a one-off though? Realistically, how many of those races has she got a chance of winning? It is almost like they are trying to fool people (it seems to have worked) into believing that she is much better than she actually is. At best she is probably around 155 and most of the time she doesn’t have to run to that figure.
Stilvi, you need to read the thread title properly. It is: Which Festival race would you get rid of?
It is not: Which Festival race would you get rid of? (all responses must contain reasoning that is acceptable to Stilvi).
Thank goodness, I thought I had misread it myself. That sort of aggression drives people away from forums, sadly (well it will me, and that’s a shame as there are a lot of good people on here).
Stilvi always seems to have a chip on his shoulder. Him and Zarkava seem to think a forum gives them a platform to belittle people they consider intellectually inferior (which is pretty much everybody) and do it in the most aggressive way possible.
If forumites were animals, Stilvi would be a pitbull and Zarkava a rottweiler.
Just chill out.
Reason why Cheltenham’s so brilliant is twofold; Very Best Quality Horses and Competitiveness.
What some fail to grasp is… without the latter it would be like any other “Festival” – an Aintree or Punchestown. Good though those are, there is only one Cheltenham. However, the more races the more it gets diluted. Too many races give connections the option of avoiding the Stars. Although still imo the best four days racing in the World, no doubt in my mind it is not as good as it was/should be… because of that extra day. Three day Festival would be ideal.Races I’d get rid of are: Ryanair Chase, JLT Novice Chase, Albert Bartlett Novice Hurdle, Dawn Run Mares Novice Hurdle and in time either the Martin Pipe Conditional Hurdle or Kim Muir Amateur Handicap Chase. I’d also change a few of the others.
Only the odd runner in those races are not effective at other distances/in other races and would enhance quality and competitiveness of those races. Tempting horses away from top races is never a good thing.
Cross Country does not attract good enough horses for professional jockeys, if kept I would make it purely for amateurs. It is after all most like a Point To Point. I’m not interested in it at all as a betting medium and wouldn’t miss it, but others do and is not all about me. At least it is unusual and doesn’t take any horses away from other races.
National Hunt Chase should be changed. It’s become a race enabling top owners and trainers with too many top staying novices to race their second or third strings against second and third rate novices not up to running in the RSA. Just as well change to a novice handicap, becoming less likely to take good horses away from the Grade 1 and make both races more competitive.
I see no problem with the Bumper. Although a “flat race” year after year provides a school for top quality jumpers and – again – importantly does not take any horse away from other races.
Fred Winter Handicap Hurdle does take horses away from the Triumph. However, looking at results it has seemingly/strangely enhanced the Triumph; used to be won by a lot of outsiders and those victorious seldom went on. Quality of winners going up since inception of the handicap. Not sure why, but imo history shows it would be the wrong move to do away with the Fred Winter.
Martin Pipe Conditional Hurdle imo is not good enough to be worth a place at the Cheltenham Festival. Having an average winning OR of 137.6, it’s a second rate Coral Cup which over the same time period is 143.3. Kim Muir at an average OR of 138.6 is only 1 ahead of the Martin Pipe and not good enough for a non-novice race. Cross Country is a different type of race altogether; it becoming amateur can take the place of the Kim Muir. May be allow the KM and MP to continue for now, then keep the better quality one for conditionals.
We don’t need two staying races for novice hurdlers; only lessens overall quality/competitiveness of both Albert Bartlett and Neptune. Why not have Yorkhill, Yanworth and Uknowhatimeanharry in one race for a true “Championship”. These days other than the first one or two very few go on to make their mark. Every year we can only guess at which staying race a novice is going to race in. If two races were necessary then being doubly entered would not be the norm.
There aren’t enough top class novice chasers around to warrant three Grade 1’s. Enabling the top novices of GB and I (and top novices of particular yards) to avoid each other. Un De Sceaux, Vautour and Don Poli in 2015; would’ve been great to see UDS taking on V. In 2016 Black Hercules and Bristol De Mai avoided Douvan and what were thought to be top novices More Of That and No More Heros, only for the latter pair to go wrong. This year we have Yorkhill and Top Notch avoiding Altior. There are too many options, the best are less likely to meet the best and we seldom have true Championships. Get rid of the JLT. All bar one or two of its runners would be fully effective at either 2m or 3m.
Current Ryanair favourite (and previous Champion Chase winner) Un De Sceaux would obviously enhance the Champion Chase. Another well-touted for the Champion, Fox Norton could yet defect to the Ryanair. Imperial Commander won the lesser race and went on to victory in the following year’s Gold Cup. Does anyone believe we would’ve seen Moscow Flyer Vs Azertyuiop Vs Well Chief in the Champion Chase if we’d have had a Grade 1 Ryanair? You’ve only got to compare the Ryanair ante-post book with Champion Chase and Gold Cup to realise vast majority of the very best horses are effective at more than one trip. Connections usually run their horses in the race which gives them the best chance of winning. That means more than distance is taken in to account. Quality of opposition is a major factor as well as what else the owner has. Empire Of Dirt’s connections also have Outlander and Don Poli for the Gold Cup, so it’s understandable O’Leary was unlikely to take a chance on EOD’s stamina and wanted to win his own Ryanair Chase. Now Don Poli is out of the Gold Cup, EOD comes in to consideration for the longer race. Of all this season’s top twenty-five in the Ryanair market only one – Josses Hill – I’d say is a definite 2½ miler and no longer effective at 2m (or 3m2f). Can always go back 30 years and find the odd specialist 2½ miler (although even Very Promising was fully effective at 2 miles, good close runner-up to better horses at the minimum trip). But to have a race purely because there’s one or two specialists is not imo practicable when it takes so many top horses away from other races and reduces competitiveness.
Best horses in the Mares Hurdle – Apples Jade, Vroum Vroum Mag and Limini would all enhance either Champion or Stayers Hurdles.
Would Flakey Dove have won the Champion Hurdle had there been a Mares Hurdle?
Would the only horse to ever win both Champion Hurdle and Gold Cup (Dawn Run) have run in either of those two fabulous races had the Mares Hurdle been available?
Mares Hurdle allowed perhaps the only horse capable of challenging Big Buck’s to avoid him and (although still worth watching) detracted from the Stayers Hurdle.
Annie Power was second in a good Stayers Hurdle in 2014, fell at the last with the Mares at her mercy in 2015 before going on to Champion victory in 2016. But allowed to even run in the latter only because her stable/owner companion Faugheen met with injury. ie The only way this subsequent easy Champion Hurdle winner was going to run in the race was through one (and only one) particular horse meeting with an accident; otherwise it would’ve been the soft option Mares Hurdle for her.
The race is not doing what it was made for. Fine… if they want a Mares Hurdle to attract breeders to the game and encourage mares to race over obstacles – DON’T make it a Mullins benefit! Limited handicap would give more breeders and owners of mares a chance of winning at Cheltenham, whilst also encouraging connections of top class mares to take the Grade 1 route.We certainly don’t need a Dawn Run Mares Novice Hurdle, overall quality of horse in this race is not good enough and the best mares can enhance the other novice races. From memory… French Ballerina, Like A Butterfly and Minorettes Girl all ran well against males, first two winning. Inaugural Dawn Run winner Limini – the 8/11 fav ran away from a poor quality uncompetitive field; half of which started 50/1 or bigger. In truth of the 16 runners only Limini was good enough to run at the Cheltenham Festival. This a race unworthy of the mare it is named after.
Value Is EverythingCompletely agree with all of the above, great post.
Think if anything it’ll get worse. Seems to me like there’s more quality in depth in the JLT and Ryanair than there is in the Arkle and Queen mum. Wouldn’t surprise me if they eventually added some more races and made it a FIVE day festival, perhaps finishing on the saturday. You could have a two mile four furlong hurdle for older horses, I think that’s already been mooted.
A splendid essay Ginger but given your choice of races for the chop – Kim Muir apart – you could have gone to bed at a reasonable hour by replacing it with the rather more succinct one-liner:
Bring back the three-day National Hunt Meeting
And who could argue with that?…
Although I agree the three day Festival was better, Drone; do think there’s improvements that can be made to the old three dayer. Had I been more “succinct” TRFers would not have understood my reasons. Unless reasoning is given am sure some younger TRFers see us oldens stating “Bring back the three-day National Hunt Meeting”, as meaning just “bring back my early years, things were better when I were a laad”. :lol:
Value Is EverythingAlthough I agree the three day Festival was better, Drone; do think there’s improvements that can be made to the old three dayer. Had I been more “succinct” TRFers would not have understood my reasons. Unless reasoning is given am sure some younger TRFers see us oldens stating “Bring back the three-day National Hunt Meeting”, as meaning just “bring back my early years, things were better when I were a laad”.
Ginge doesn’t do succinct.
"this perfect mix of poetry and destruction, this glory of rhythm, power and majesty: the undisputed champion of the world!!!"
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.