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It is rather silly to regard some of those rating as current, Strong Suit and Excelebration in particular, as well as the bias given by a UK-based business selling their product to primarily a UK based market.
Showing your ignorance of the form book again Eclipse.
You really haven’t got a clue when it comes to ratings. All you can do is make false accusations.Stick to breeding, you know something about that.
Best Timeform Racehorse before Frankel came along, Sea Bird.
French
.
Not far behind him, Ribot,
Italian
, who’s rated better than the best British mile-and-a-half horses Mill Reef, Shergar, Dancing Brave and Harbinger.
Equal best females, Allez France,
French
. Black Caviar,
Australian
. Habibti, English. Have I missed anyone out?
If Timeform are biased towards British horses, they are NOT doing a very good job about it.
Actually!!!
Making Frankel the highest rated horse of all time was as biased as it comes.Going back to wen they did so are you trying to tell us that Frankel had beaten anything in the same class as Meadow Court and co ? Up to then he had beaten one good horse in Canford Cliffs but not with anything like the authority Sea Bird won the Derby or the Arc.
I asked the question to Timeform how could they up Frankel when they had said Excel had run well below his best? Their answer was it was what he had achieved overall not whet he had done in that race.
So if this wasn’t a biased business decision to please the masses why wasn’t he put up before that race, if it wasn’t his performance that day that boosted him past Sea Bird II?
They sure picked a funny time to do it……now, had they waited until the Sussex then I would have been much more in agreement with them as Fahrr does have a couple of top class runs behind him and boy did he slaughter him or what?
Basically I think there’s a fair bit of truth in what EF says Timeform would be crazy not to be a bit biased.
Sure there are many foreign based horses up there but how could there not be? Timeform may be a bit biased as the man says but they are not totally stupid.
A blind man running for a bus could see that Black Caviar is most likely the greatest sprinter of all time. Ribot was hardly a horse they could hide up their sleeves and Sea Bid II was such a perfect racehorse hardly anyone with a good pair of eyes for horse flesh has ever disputed he was the best Timeform ever rated.
To be honest when I look at their Global Rankings and see Frankel on 147 a massive 9 points clear of Black Caviar on 137 what springs to mind is everyone in Australia thinking "Biased Bast*rds" and who would blame them?
No way on this earth has Frankel achieved that much more than she has. She ran miles below her best at Ascot due to injury which was so serious Peter Moody isn’t even sure she will run again and make no mistake there is no cover up here or she’d be shipped up to stud already.
We saw on Friday how good these Aussie sprinters are yet none of them could hold a candle to her shes won almost twice as many races and proved it time and time again over a 3 1/2 year period and could still add to that tally if they can get her back on course.
Frankel may well deserve to be called the greatest of all time. I am almost there in agreement but will reserve judgement until after the season end. However if Black Caviar was English you can bet Timeform would find good excuse to keep her right up there with him. where she deserves to be.
Meadow Court doesn’t strike me as a stand-out horse from what I’ve read about him. Yes, he ran into Sea Bird a couple of times but I think horses such as Sinndar, Lammtarra, Galileo, Generous and Nashwan (to name a few) would’ve beaten Meadow Court.
Canford Cliffs is a far better horse IMO.
I wouldn’t argue with that Rob but Lester thought a lot of him. Not only did he win the Irish Derby a race that meant something back in those days but he also beat everything the world sent in the Arc bar Sea Bird II. His class was undisputable as his form in Group races was rock solid.
Excelebration on the other hand has won nothing worth talking about yet it was Frankel’s defeat of him that boosted him to top stardom. Time could of course change that.
I agree Canford Cliffs was an awesome beats but Frankel who was mature beyond his years was getting weight, Canford was said to be wrong and was retired after the race and Frankel though impressive never beat him with the same authority he has beaten Excel.
I’ve said already elsewhere Frankel IMO at 4 year old would have beaten Canford with much more authority but that i nothing more than opinion.
The fact is strictly on the book Frankel has been elevated above his actual achievements.
I think he is awesome and have done for a very long time. I said Timeform were absolutely nuts when they separated him and Dream Ahead by nothing more than a plus sign stating a blind man could see Frankel was different class.
As big a fan as I am I find it hard to agree that Frankel has done more than Sea Bird II did and until he beat Farh so easily he never even came close.
Hopefully when they step him up to 10 furlong something like Nathaniel or the likes take him on and he hammers them like he did Fahrr and his rating will at least be justified.
I remember reading about Nashwaan and how highly rated he was by Timeform but when everything he beat flopped by the end of the season and their view changed.
If Frankel were to take on the likes of Camelot, Danedream or Nathaniel and treat them with utter contempt than I would agree Frankel may well be the greatest of all time. Even if Excel came out and won something of note that would help big time but the truth is up to now the opposition he has beaten doesn’t seem to justify the rating supreme he has.
At the end of the day the point is Ginger is slating a guy who made a perfectly valid argument and I agree with what he said re Timeform being biased when it suits.
Not only did he win the Irish Derby a race that meant something back in those days but he also beat everything the world sent in the Arc bar Sea Bird II.
Meadow Court finished 9th to Sea Bird in the Arc. I think you meant the Epsom Derby
I agree Canford Cliffs was an awesome beats but Frankel who was mature beyond his years was getting weight, Canford was said to be wrong and was retired after the race and Frankel though impressive never beat him with the same authority he has beaten Excel.
Canford Cliffs ran his last furlong in the 2011 Sussex (behind Frankel) nearly 2 seconds quicker than the last furlong he ran in the Queen Anne in the same year (when he slit past Goldikova). It took how long for team Hannon to find an excuse for CC’s defeat
In that Sussex, Frankel only got serious just over one furlong out to put those five lengths between himself and Canford Cliffs. I’ve no doubt that Frankel, on that day, could’ve hit the afterburner over a furlong eariler and nearly doubled the winning distance.I feel a rout coming on for Frankel in the Juddmonte. Then we’ll see what the ratings will be … provided that other trainers/owners have the balls to oppose him
And there lies the problem and it’s unlikely to go away.
You only need to cast your mind back to Aintree when my favourite horse after running riot at Cheltenham was taken on by 3 horses in a Grade 1 race.
They had won 5 minor chases between them,they never even got him out of 2nd gear and he sauntered home at 1/7 fav.
Once a real superstar comes on the scene it’s only a matter of time before the challengers drop off and go and do what all owners want to do…….win races…. not finish 2nd.
Slagging trainers for not taking on the Frankel’s and Sprinter Sacre’s of this world is poor show….anyone in there right mind would rather their horse was remembered for winning an Eclipse or the King George than finishing a well beaten 2nd to Frankel in the Sussex
People will remember So You Think, Nathaniel and Danedream because their names are in the history books but no one will remember Farhh or Ecxelebration.
So THATS where Timeform have been going wrong – where is their "Lester thought a lot of him" calculation factored in?
Excelebration will get his chance to show what he can do on Sunday when he looks like taking on Moonlight Cloud in the Prix Jaques Le Marois. Might help us put everything into context.
"this perfect mix of poetry and destruction, this glory of rhythm, power and majesty: the undisputed champion of the world!!!"
Farhh only deserves a rating close to Nathaniel’s highest rating if you think he ran up to his best when he won the Eclipse. If you do not believe Nathaniel had to run to his best to win the Eclipse or that he did not produce his best that day then logically a rating accorded to Farhh for his proximity to Nathaniel should be based on Nathaniel’s run in the Eclipse, not his best ever rating.
Eclipse,
You said "Farhh has not achievedanything like
as much as the horses to whom he is rated equal".
If you don’t believe Nathaniel ran to form in the Eclipse, then that would be fine if it’s by one, two or even three pounds. But to believe it wasn’t "anything like" his best (as it has to be for your assessment of Farhh to be true) is ridiculous.
Value Is EverythingIf Timeform’s ratings as given in the table, were to include some facts like distance, going and date then one might be able to evaluate their relevance. The table as a standalone piece of information is a masterpiece of vagueness.
Come off it Eclipse, it’s bleedin’ obvious that Farhh’s rating is based on the Eclipse run.
Value Is EverythingIf Timeform’s ratings as given in the table, were to include some facts like distance, going and date then one might be able to evaluate their relevance. The table as a standalone piece of information is a masterpiece of vagueness.
Come off it Eclipse, it’s bleedin’ obvious that Farhh’s rating is based on the Eclipse run.
Perhaps that assessment is easier to identify but I was re-stating my previous point that the ratings of some of the horses in that list are not based on this season and therefore to regard them as current is stretching the point. This is one of the chief reasons that discussing relative merits of horses that have not raced against each other should be done at the end of the season without the most recent memory image to confuse a rational brain.
At the end of the day the point is Ginger is slating a guy who made a perfectly valid argument and I agree with what he said re Timeform being biased when it suits.
Fist,
I am "slating" someone who is hersefslating
an organisation’s
"current"
ratings as
bias
ed which she only now admits to finding difficult to "evaluate their relevance".
Value Is EverythingFarhh only deserves a rating close to Nathaniel’s highest rating if you think he ran up to his best when he won the Eclipse. If you do not believe Nathaniel had to run to his best to win the Eclipse or that he did not produce his best that day then logically a rating accorded to Farhh for his proximity to Nathaniel should be based on Nathaniel’s run in the Eclipse, not his best ever rating.
Eclipse,
You said "Farhh has not achievedanything like
as much as the horses to whom he is rated equal".
If you don’t believe Nathaniel ran to form in the Eclipse, then that would be fine if it’s by one, two or even three pounds. But to believe it wasn’t "anything like" his best (as it has to be for your assessment of Farhh to be true) is ridiculous.
It would only take for Nathaniel to have run 2pts below his best in the Eclipse for Farhh’s rating to be reduced below the level whereby he would be included in the top 20 in the TF list. Using 131 as his best rating on their scale I would say that Nathaniel ran to no more than 127 in the Eclipse. Farhh therefore deserves no more than 126 as he was comfortably held at the line.
A blind man running for a bus could see that Black Caviar is most likely the greatest sprinter of all time. Ribot was hardly a horse they could hide up their sleeves and Sea Bid II was such a perfect racehorse hardly anyone with a good pair of eyes for horse flesh has ever disputed he was the best Timeform ever rated.
To be honest when I look at their Global Rankings and see Frankel on 147 a massive 9 points clear of Black Caviar on 137 what springs to mind is everyone in Australia thinking "Biased Bast*rds" and who would blame them?
No way on this earth has Frankel achieved that much more than she has. She ran miles below her best at Ascot due to injury which was so serious Peter Moody isn’t even sure she will run again and make no mistake there is no cover up here or she’d be shipped up to stud already.
We saw on Friday how good these Aussie sprinters are yet none of them could hold a candle to her shes won almost twice as many races and proved it time and time again over a 3 1/2 year period and could still add to that tally if they can get her back on course.
Frankel may well deserve to be called the greatest of all time. I am almost there in agreement but will reserve judgement until after the season end. However if Black Caviar was English you can bet Timeform would find good excuse to keep her right up there with him. where she deserves to be.
Black Caviar is in fact 136 Fist, not 137.
Timeform’s rating of Black Caviar is given by an Australian, of Timeform Australia / Racing And Sports on the Timeform scale. Is he "biased"?
If Black Caviar were English then she’d have exactly the same rating as she does being Australian. ie The best rating since Dayjur (the best rated British sprinter in living memory)…
However Fist, I remember having to correct you criticising Zarkava’s Timeform Arc rating. You’ve got to remember that if a colt/horse takes on a filly/mare the male gives 3 lbs to the female. So we need to add the 3 lbs sex allowance to Black Caviar to establish her true rating (as it would appear if she were able to take on Dayjur in an actual Group 1 race). Timeform believe Black Caviar to be a
2 lbs better
racehorse than Dayjur. Yet that is not good enough for you Fist. Black Caviar’s rating is also 4 lbs better, or rather (with allowance) rated a
7 lbs better
racehorse than ex Aussie So You Think.
Although Frankel’s rating is 147 and Black Caviar 136, with the sex allowance it should be seen as 147 against 139.
Value Is EverythingIt would only take for Nathaniel to have run 2pts below his best in the Eclipse for Farhh’s rating to be reduced below the level whereby he would be included in the top 20 in the TF list. Using 131 as his best rating on their scale I would say that Nathaniel ran to no more than 127 in the Eclipse. Farhh therefore deserves no more than 126 as he was comfortably held at the line.
4 lbs hardly deserves the assessment of "anything like" Eclipse.
Value Is Everything4lbs at the upper echelon in the Intermediate distance range is a significant amount. Enough of a difference to say that he would be unlikely to win a group 1 event in this country over 10f given the ultra-competitive nature of the division.
Let me try once more.The best sprinters are in Australia/France.The best middle distancew horse was SYT.The cup horses are trained in Ireland.The best 3yos are in Ballydoyle.The best classic horse is trained in Germany.Take Frankel out of the mix and what is left? A nice fillie trained by Gosden.Where sre all the other horses? We look forward with hope and anticipation to the St.leger.How about that! It used to be that Stoute,Gosden,Cecil, Dunlop et. al. would have three year olds to beat the band.Not any more.Have the Arabs bought them all up and lost them? Have the Arabs in fact sucked the blood out of English racing?
4lbs at the upper echelon in the Intermediate distance range is a significant amount. Enough of a difference to say that he would be unlikely to win a group 1 event in this country over 10f given the ultra-competitive nature of the division.
That "ultra-competitive division" where a top 12 furlong horse can run (according to you EF) 4 lbs below his best… Yet still win a top 10 furlong race by half a length from a horse who (according to you) isn’t up to winning one…
The same "ultra-competitive division", where the other 2012 British Group 1 winner has already been retired… After winning his race from a non-stayer and one who was stopped in his run, without which would’ve been significantly closer… Oh yes, that same horse who (according to you) isn’t up to it.So much for these "ultra-competitive" races EF.
Without just one horse who (according to you) was running at a distance below his best… Farhh would’ve already won a Group 1 10f ultra-competitive event….
Without one horse who’s now retired… and with a little more luck in running… Farhh may well have already won two of these "ultra-competitive" 10f Group 1’s.Yet (according to you) Farhh is "unlikely to win a Group 1 event in this country".
Value Is Everything
Making Frankel the highest rated horse of all time was as biased as it comes.
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