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My argument hinges on whether it was a slow race or not, if it was (like last year) then of course Kauto ran below form, if it was a quick race, unlike one Kauto has ever been in before then it’s entirely plausible he’s ran to form and just couldn’t jump or travel at ease under pace. I think Findlay should be a fortune teller he told the whole world what was going to happen.
He’s won Grade One events over 2 miles – of course he can jump AND travel with a strong pace.
We all knew Denman was going to inject pace into the race, it was just a matter of when. Kauto was never travelling, even before Denman’s surge.
Oh no, I hope Findlay doesn’t come out with his ‘Denman broke their hearts nonsense’.
My argument hinges on whether it was a slow race or not, if it was (like last year) then of course Kauto ran below form, if it was a quick race, unlike one Kauto has ever been in before then it’s entirely plausible he’s ran to form and just couldn’t jump or travel at ease under pace. I think Findlay should be a fortune teller he told the whole world what was going to happen.
He’s won Grade One events over 2 miles – of course he can jump AND travel with a strong pace.
We all knew Denman was going to inject pace into the race, it was just a matter of when. Kauto was never travelling, even before Denman’s surge.
Oh no, I hope Findlay doesn’t come out with his ‘Denman broke their hearts nonsense’.
lol i know its rediculous, maybe everyone bar ks and NC were broken, but kauto was struggling a 1/4 way through the first circuit let alone the 2nd, with his jumping i mean. Findley wasn’t has pleased as he would of been if KS had ran to its very best and still Denman won, then i would be holding my hands up lol
Ginge, if we’re looking at Kauto’s jumping throughout his raceourse career then I think you’ll probably agree "jumps very well" in it’s crudest sense is arguable
I wouldnt say that his "whole career" is that relevant. Hes continued to imrove and especially jumped far better this year…especially at Kempton
I have got Denman wrong twice this year, so I could be wrong again. How the hell did a handicapper get to within a neck of Kauto Star? I am not an expert race reader but to my eyes he looked like he could not get his feet off the floor even on the first circuit. It looked all over the same kind of race he ran at Aintree and we know how short he was there. He’s ok though so thats one consolation, all credit to the horse he ran so well considering.
Hard to say well done Denman when we were robbed of the race anticipated for so long.
the new official ratings are
masterminded 186
denman 185
kaoto star 180
neptune 178
that is from the handicapper phil smith who spoke to paul nicheols in the paddock before last race at chelt today…………..just got back from the course – great performance by Denman – more like an anniliation. Wound it up going into the second circuit and got in close to a couple but got further and further away. Never at any point did/could Kauto be in a proper postion to challenge. I think the form is rock solid – 2nd last years winner, 3rd a vastly improving young horse, and 4th a Welsh National winner – decent form in anyone’s book.
dont underestimate the ability to jump and gallop your rivals into the ground – thats what he did. I thought he got a bit tired at the end but after that 2nd circuit he had every right to be
the new official ratings are
masterminded 186
denman 185
kaoto star 180
neptune 178
that is from the handicapper phil smith who spoke to paul nicheols in the paddock before last race at chelt today…………..wow that would make Kauto probably capable of 195 then
Although i laid this horse for ”silly money” I wouldnt rule out Kauto Star just yet,his jumping came back to haunt him.
Denman had a free reighn and it was a pretty poor bunch,probably only about 3 outside Denham and Kauto Star that could have caused a shock.
Take nothing away from the winner ..raw talent who could be the next big thing.
the new official ratings are
masterminded 186
denman 185
kaoto star 180
neptune 178
that is from the handicapper phil smith who spoke to paul nicheols in the paddock before last race at chelt today…………..i’m not disappointed in the race at all, as per title thread, but if we’re going by the official handicapper kauto has raced to within 1lb of his best rating when jumping poorly including smacking the last where he lost plenty of momentum. i can’t have that at all.
personally i’d have denman running to 4-5lb below that, on a par with kautos best.the new official ratings are
masterminded 186
denman 185
kaoto star 180
neptune 178
that is from the handicapper phil smith who spoke to paul nicheols in the paddock before last race at chelt today…………..i’m not disappointed in the race at all, as per title thread, but if we’re going by the official handicapper kauto has raced to within 1lb of his best rating when jumping poorly including smacking the last where he lost plenty of momentum. i can’t have that at all.
personally i’d have denman running to 4-5lb below that, on a par with kautos best.Yup your right mate, the only way that can be true is if we really an’t seen the best of Kauto Star
My argument hinges on whether it was a slow race or not, if it was (like last year) then of course Kauto ran below form, if it was a quick race, unlike one Kauto has ever been in before then it’s entirely plausible he’s ran to form and just couldn’t jump or travel at ease under pace. I think Findlay should be a fortune teller he told the whole world what was going to happen.
He’s won Grade One events over 2 miles – of course he can jump AND travel with a strong pace.
We all knew Denman was going to inject pace into the race, it was just a matter of when. Kauto was never travelling, even before Denman’s surge.
Oh no, I hope Findlay doesn’t come out with his ‘Denman broke their hearts nonsense’.
He probably will Bosranic. well done to Denman, but please, Kauto Star did not travel a yard today, did not look himself, reminded me of Azertyuiop’s final Champion chase, just very lathergic.
JohnJ.
Denman will be an even better horse with a nice break Beckster, Master Minded was definately the fresher horse of the two. Personally I would love to see Master Minded carry some weight in a handicap like Kauto did, not that that will ever happen he’s just so good.
I’m a huge fan of Master Minded marb he looks an awesome prospect
He is a beutifully composed horse with no quirks about him.He could be the best 2 miler since Dunkirk second to none.
He looks that good to me.
Having said that people greatly over rated T/bleu, Twist magic in PN’s own words is a summer horse……he would have been well saying this wont be his day. So once again we were left with a head to head between last years QMCC winner and MM. He’s beaten him easier if anything. so has he improved or id VPU gone backwards………remember he has done nothing this season except win one bad race.
I take pride in spotting good horse like Binocular Sizing Europe etc and this horse blew me away at Newbury……..I just wonder about VPU because he’s the only line we have.
He’s the first 5yo ever to win the QMCC and he deserves a lot of credit for that, but we really don’t know how good the form is.
Tiday Bay has destoyed a Noland and co and has also put up a terrific performance………..he came up the hill so esily he ws like a hurdler in an all out finish at Kempton. He also lloks to have agreat future ahead of him.
Next season if those two meet and MM can do to him what he did to VPUthen he will be something to talk about as a great horse,,,,,,,,as much as I like him and as much as I think he looks to be a brilliant horse I don’t think beating the same horse twice entitles him to the Superstar staus quite yet.
I thought it was a good race and a fine example of how tactics work.
Denman and Sam Thomas new how to exploit Kauto Star and boy did they do it and is was quite like the run in Aintree when Kauto got beaten.
In other words if Kauto had still jumped badly and improved 7 & a half lengths today and beat Denman by half a length the form of the race would be o.k,
exactly………..not a truer word said.
but in all seriousness i think the forms rock solid, just 4-5lb lower than phil smith it seems.
hope Denman’s owners don;t get sucked into scrapping with Kauto, and allowing their campaign to be mapped around rematches with Kauto. I hope they stick with their aim of sending him to Aintree for the National – and maybe they will emulate the great Golden Miller and win the Gold Cup and National in the same season. Based on his Hennessey victory their is little reason to suspect he cannot hump top weight around Liverpool!
i dont see if they have a coice really. surely they have to take the haydock route just to see if they can get the 1st leg at least of the betfair million.
Some interesting opinions, lots of knowledge and I have learned a bit reading through it all.
One thing I would say with absolute certainty though is that Neptunes Collonge does not hold the form down.I have followed this horses career from his days in France and I thought he had a really good chance to win today if the top two didn’t get home in the ground (or fell). This has been the first time imho since he came to race in this country that NC has had abolutely optimum conditions. I rated him about a stone above his official mark going into the GC. As it happened Denman at least saw it out fully.
I think the form is solid Denman is the best horse and that KS is best below 26 furlongs, but Denman could still be better at 3miles.
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