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My point being team Frankel used a pacemaker. Had team Japan used one I’m not saying they would have won but it would have suited them more than how the race was ran on Sunday.
Gaelic Warrior Gold Cup Winner 2026
Why would Orfevre winning narrowly from the French Guineas and Derby winner mean the form would be crabbed Steve?
Intello didn’t win the French Guineas PC.
I don’t really rate the French Derby this year and I suspect most people would have a job naming many of the runners outside of Intello such is their collective anonymity. A horse wins the French Derby every year but quality will vary from year to year, which I think is something to bear in mind when comparing horses from different eras, as we need to do on this thread.
Thanks for the good crack. Time for me to move on. Be lucky.
Steve,
The overall standard of this year’s Arc does not need to be exceptional for Treve to be rated highly. Because she did not just beat Orfevre, she beat him by a long margin, 5 lengths (or between 4 and 5 lengths). I remember we had a similar debate about War Command and his form level Steve.
Winning distances matter.Orfevre’s form rating given for Sunday’s performance has nothing to do with being "bad value" beforehand. Everything to do with the position he finishes in relation to the other horses in the race. In any race some horses will run to form, some won’t and some will improve their form.
I asked the question in the thread title because from Treve’s 5 length beating of Orfevre and co, it was clear to me that performance was right up there with the very best I’ve seen. I do believe it was the best performance by a 3 year old filly in my racing memory. Whether it’s the best by any aged filly, I too will have to reserve judgement for now Steve. Timeform say in their write up the winning distance was more like 4 than 5 lengths and have rated her as such. Having seen the race again, they are right. So obviously, a 4 length beating of Orfevre is not quite as good as 5.
Don’t get me wrong, this performance makes Treve a shoo in for Racehorse Of The Year. My question is whether other female horses from the past could have given Orfevre a similar beating in the same conditions? which is much harder to be confident about, one way or the other, for me anyway.
Sometimes a horse will spark off a gut feeling that it is the best performance you’ve ever witnessed, and that is fair enough if it’s the way you react to what you have seen.
I get the feeling that you felt the need to start a thread rather quickly in order to express how impressed you were. It is good to get a buzz from a horse that makes you want to do that but you could at least have waited until Leading Light managed to cross the finishing line before diving in
Thanks for the good crack. Time for me to move on. Be lucky.
Remember how people were raving on about Homecoming Queen after she destroyed the opposition in the 2012 1000 Guineas? Some folk even dared mention her in the same breath as Frankel. Turned out to be a flash-in-the-pan.
Treve is no doubt a smart filly but does come aross as a soft ground specialist.
Homecoming Queen’s been mentioned more than once in this thread. There can be no comparison, imo, (on the visual impact aspect and what it meant for HQ’s future).
The Guineas was HQ’s 13th outing, of which she’d won just 3 prior to the Classic. She was beaten in her first 8 runs (she lost in both her post-Guineas runs).
As for Treve being a soft ground specialist – she’s won twice on Good, one of those a Grade 1.
I checked out Treves’ previous races on utube last night; had I done so prior to Sunday I think there would have been only one winner for me. There was a comment along the lines of ‘she’s a long way back and boxed in, she’ll have to be something special to win from there’. Hindsight and all that…
I thought we were comparing the best with the best,not the worst with the worst.Many horses have run poorly we are not interested in that.Last Sunday was the best for Treve that is what we are judging.Homecoming Queen’s One Thousand Guineas was her best run ever.Just like Arazi .We compare his BC run.That again is what we are comparing.One run versus one run.Not their career average or something like it.
Homecoming Queen’s clear-cut victory was the end game of all the other horses bar two being held hostage in the stalls for a long time. Gray Pearl was injured in the stalls, and she subsequently died. It took a long time to sort out that unfortunate issue. Three fillies, including the first and second in the race, were calmly walking around out the back. The others were fretting away, adrenalin pumping, locked in their stall. Even Aiden O’Brien admitted on TV shortly after the race that the other fillies were seriously disadvantaged. Of course, none of that is mentioned in the form books. If that has been forgotten so soon, I guess in 20 year’s time anyone reading the form books will think that Homecoming Queen was brilliant on a least one day in her career.
Whether anyone thinks that Treve was exceptional in the Arc depends on whether they think Orfevre ran to his best form. The relative closeness of Intello, Kizuna and Penglai Pavilion suggest he did not. Their previous form is fairly well exposed and consistent, but they have all been given increased ratings to justify Treve’s.
Whether anyone thinks that Treve was exceptional in the Arc depends on whether they think Orfevre ran to his best form. The relative closeness of Intello, Kizuna and Penglai Pavilion suggest he did not. Their previous form is fairly well exposed and consistent, but they have all been given increased ratings to justify Treve’s.
Judging the race by day of race Timeform ratings, the gap between Orfevre and Kizuna of 2 lengths and a neck is pretty much exactly what could be expected beforehand MV.
Intello wasn’t sure to get the trip, I’d say very much unexposed if doing so MV. Two extremes on breeding always make it difficult to predict stamina needs. On dams side of pedigree there was a doubt, I did not believe he’d stay. But is by Galileo. So on breeding he could be best at anything between a 8f to 12f and yet to race at the latter trip. If taking after his sire there was a reasonable chance of not only staying the trip, but improving at it.
Penglai Pavillion also unexposed at a lesser level. Best effort prior to this 2nd in Group 2 Grand Prix De Deauville over this trip. A very slow pace there hindered him and always likely to do a bit better given an increased stamina test. Did not need to be at best to win the race in between.
There was every indication beforehand both Intello and Penglai Pavilion were capable of better. Amount of improvement shown being totally believable.
Treve was rated with a "p" for improvement likely and top rated, 2 lbs clear of second top Orfevre. So Timeform expected Treve to be more than 2 lbs better than Orfevre on Sunday
Again, judged on the Timeform ratings on the day compared to their new ratings: Only four horses (all 3 year olds) improved their rating. That’s fewer than ran to the exact rating. Four horses ran to their exact rating (three older horses and one three year old). Another older horse probablywould have ran to its exact rating with better luck in running, just two pounds below.
Value Is EverythingI’m relieved that Penglai Pavilion didn’t run into a place as he was my pick of horses with big prices that might get placed, but then I decided that he was just going to be used as a pacemaker. Certainly going to watch him when the ground is soft, though.
So Homecoming Queen’s win in the Guineas was the result of bla bla bla.Check her other wins and what she beat.Ballydoyle never did fancy her,she was the ugly step sister at Ballydoyle and Joseph rode her but once, out of her twelve outings before the Guineas. I am not saying she was another Pebbles,what I am saying is that her Guineas performance on the day was visually brilliant.Was that not the point of the discussion?
I am not saying she was another Pebbles,what I am saying is that her Guineas performance on the day was visually brilliant.Was that not the point of the discussion?
It is indeed the point of the discussion – hence why you’ll never have seen a more facile classic or group 1 winning filly than Humble Duty’s 1970 1,000 Guineas. Lester could have eaten his breakfast, lunch and supper aboard the Peter Walwyn trained filly and still would have won pulling ten carts. That’s how easy it was.
Gambling Only Pays When You're Winning
So Homecoming Queen’s win in the Guineas was the result of bla bla bla.Check her other wins and what she beat.Ballydoyle never did fancy her,she was the ugly step sister at Ballydoyle and Joseph rode her but once, out of her twelve outings before the Guineas. I am not saying she was another Pebbles,what I am saying is that her Guineas performance on the day was visually brilliant.Was that not the point of the discussion?
Well not exactly the point of my original post Andyod. Part of it may be. Being "impressive" is one thing, but the main aspect involved in the thread title is
quality
. If they have both run to form – an
exceptional
racefilly/mare who beats another
exceptional
horse by
only
a length – could concievably put up a
better
performance than a
good
Group 1 filly/mare with a
9
lengths winning margin over horses who’ve performed in that race (in Group 1 terms)
ordinarily
.
Homecoming Queen was undoubtedly "impressive", and as far as 1000 Guineas go she was a "good" quality winner. For whatever reason she did not show the same level of form afterwards. But I don’t really believe it was seriously talked of as a "best ever performance by a female racehorse". Only by those trying to knock Frankel’s Guineas.
Others have already told of the problems encountered by most of the field beforehand and few ran to form. Second horse Starscope, who without Homecoming Queen would’ve been a poor 1000 Guineas winner. Rated by Timeform some 18 lbs worse than Arc second Orfevre. For sure the third Maybe had good form at two; but horses do not run to form every time, there was no doubt she ran poorly on that day. Failed to produce two year old form in 4 runs at three. The Fugue 4th improved at longer distances afterwards.
Homecoming Queen’s 1000 Guineas
form
performance is nowhere near that of Treve.
Value Is EverythingThe wrong link gingertipster. Not sure this the article,but of interest. http://betting.betfair.com/horse-racing … 13-43.html
Winning distances matter.
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