- This topic has 41 replies, 26 voices, and was last updated 18 years ago by
.
- Posts
- Total Posts 17716
Im very surprised everyone seems to think MM didn’t get home.
The huge blunder stopped the hores to almost a stand still when looking to be going equally as well, if not better than VPE. I always thought if anything gets 2 miles round cheltenham off a strong pace then 2m4f anywhere else is a doddle. That theory or rule seems to have vanished with one race or serious blunder!
I still think the horse gets the trip when on song (as clearly it wasn’t today) and without a horrendous momentum stopping mistake. I was very surprised he wasn’t pulled up immediately to be honest.
I wonder price you’d have got on MM before the mistake?
OTS
Or maybe the mistake was that of a tired horse?
Ruby would probably have layed you any price you like, as he said after the race "The horses was running on empty before we got to the fence".
There is also no ‘rule’ that anything that stays Cheltenham’s stifff 2m is guaranteed to get Aintree’s easy 2m4f as the trainers of Well Chief, Roooster Booster, Mac’s Joy, and a host of others would no doubt testify.- Total Posts 17716
Im very surprised everyone seems to think MM didn’t get home.
The huge blunder stopped the hores to almost a stand still when looking to be going equally as well, if not better than VPE. I always thought if anything gets 2 miles round cheltenham off a strong pace then 2m4f anywhere else is a doddle. That theory or rule seems to have vanished with one race or serious blunder!
I still think the horse gets the trip when on song (as clearly it wasn’t today) and without a horrendous momentum stopping mistake. I was very surprised he wasn’t pulled up immediately to be honest.
I wonder price you’d have got on MM before the mistake?
OTS
Or maybe the mistake was that of a tired horse?
Ruby would probably have layed you any price you like, as he said after the race "The horse was running on empty before we got to the fence".
There is also no ‘rule’ that anything that stays Cheltenham’s stifff 2m is guaranteed to get Aintree’s easy 2m4f as the trainers of Well Chief, Roooster Booster, Mac’s Joy, and a host of others would no doubt testify.Or: why its silly to call Master Minded ‘a 186 horse’ rather than a horse who has achieved one ‘186 performance’ (and has lots of potential).
I think what you have written there is the nub of the whole argument that blew up on this forum after Phil Smith rated Master Minded 186, Denman 185, Neptune Collonges 176 after their Cheltenham performances.
I defended the hikes – and still do. I now realise where a lot of you were coming from, in that you didn’t dispute the merit of the performance, but thought one race was not enough evidence to justify the hike. However, you are wrong, because a horse capable of running to 186, 185, 176 etc, deserves to be rated as such, until such time as evidence shows he isn’t capable of doing so anymore. How would you feel, say, if you owned a 110 rated handicapper, who was set to race against a similar weighted rival who had achieved a 130 performance last time out, even though that rival had never achieved anything like that previously?
There are others, of course, who simply wouldn’t have rated the Cheltenham races as highly, and I find it harder to argue against them, it being simply a case of my opinion (and the handicapper’s) against theirs (for now).
Ruby would probably have layed you any price you like, as he said after the race "The horses was running on empty before we got to the fence".
I think we shouldn’t take jockey’s comments at face value – but ask what is going through their minds at the time they speak. Walsh has been hearing since the Betfair Chase at Haydock in November stuff like "didn’t Kauto jump well for Sam" "He’s never jumped like that for Ruby" and after the Gold Cup "Kauto didn’t jump like he did for Sam at Haydock" and after Thursday "Kauto’s jumping is gone again – I think Sam will be on all the horses next year"
And now the best chaser of them all at Ditcheat makes one of the worst blunders you’ll ever see (I will be surprised if he hasn’t done something to his back, he wasn’t moving at all right afterwards) two out when upsides the eventual winner in a Grade 1 – do you think Ruby is going to come in and say "I would have won if it wasn’t for that horrendous mistake" or "the horse was beaten anyway the mistake was that of a tired horse".
- Total Posts 17716
WW
Not sure he used exactly those words, though he must have reported something pretty close:Master Minded had been beaten over the same distance in France but Paul Nicholls did not regret having another try.
“He’s run a good race, he just said he didn’t stay – simple as that,â€
Ruby would probably have layed you any price you like, as he said after the race "The horses was running on empty before we got to the fence".
I think we shouldn’t take jockey’s comments at face value – but ask what is going through their minds at the time they speak. Walsh has been hearing since the Betfair Chase at Haydock in November stuff like "didn’t Kauto jump well for Sam" "He’s never jumped like that for Ruby" and after the Gold Cup "Kauto didn’t jump like he did for Sam at Haydock" and after Thursday "Kauto’s jumping is gone again – I think Sam will be on all the horses next year"
And now the best chaser of them all at Ditcheat makes one of the worst blunders you’ll ever see (I will be surprised if he hasn’t done something to his back, he wasn’t moving at all right afterwards) two out when upsides the eventual winner in a Grade 1 – do you think Ruby is going to come in and say "I would have won if it wasn’t for that horrendous mistake" or "the horse was beaten anyway the mistake was that of a tired horse".
If I am understanding this correctly you are talking about the blunder MM made? I had to as that as I couldn’t believe you were talking about MM I had to go back check the posts and go back and watch the race again I was so amazed
If so suggest you go back and take another look WW
Then if you want to see a mistake go look at Kauto Star.s and watch how high his back legs came up.they may even have made cnttact and winded him it was such an akward looking leap.
Master Minded looked beat to me before the second last and Ruby was being exceptionally gentle on him to try and get him home. All he did was drag his back legs through the fence a little.no way would that stop a horse unless 99 times out of 100
Ruby is way too smart to start talkng garbage that people can pull him up on……..Jockeys who do say silly things like he would have won if he hadn’t made a bad blunder when in fact everyone who knows the horse has seen he hasn’t stayed and the blunder amounted to about ziltch, don’t last five minutes….you make silly claims in this game you go down as an idiot or a very bad judge relsulting in no rides. Ruby is one of the most straight talking guys in the game.
If MM looked beat to you before the second last you must have an incredible sixth sense like talent! If ruby REALLY thought the horse was running on empty before the second last, why did he not pull him up after the blunder (of the type that horses NEVER win after making) and decide AGAINST giving him a few cracks as if he’d magically take off again?
Such a great judge that ruby is…or was it more excuses?
All he did was drag his back legs through the fence a little
As you asked Fists I went back and watched what he did – I was watching the race again when a champion hurdle winning trainer came into the room – Fooking hell he said, I’m surprised he didn’t break his back.
Left the video running to hear what the pundits said afterwards – Richard Pitman said the horse must have been really badly winded after the mistake – do you think you’re a better judge than him? I’m too young to remember, but I’m told he was stable jockey to Fred Winter at around about the time that nobody would put you up on one?
Nick
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.