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Fist Moscow Flyer may have been all out to beat Well Chief and Azertyuiop but they were both 170 plus horses. Master Minded is strolling through his races against 150s / low 160’s horses. Thats way over ten lengths inferior horses to what Moscow Flyer was competing against.
Some good points made re MM and Moscow, to my eye with Moscow (until the fading of the light) he was only ever ‘all out’ in one steeplechase. That was his second QM when he genuinely had to give everything to hold off Well Chief, arguably that was the race that began the end for him, he was 11 after all.
Master Minded is so exciting but the A word is premature not so much by the level of his 2 mile performances but rather his possible limitation to that minimum trip. On the only occasion he has moved up to 20f (in top class) he was caned by VPU, that did actually happen and only 9 months ago.
MM may be unfortunate that he does not enjoy a rivalry that Moscow did but if he keeps doing it as he is now then I would be happy to concede his parity or superiority to Moscow after another QM and one more Tingle Creek.Some good points made re MM and Moscow, to my eye with Moscow (until the fading of the light) he was only ever ‘all out’ in one steeplechase. That was his second QM when he genuinely had to give everything to hold off Well Chief, arguably that was the race that began the end for him, he was 11 after all.
Master Minded is so exciting but the A word is premature not so much by the level of his 2 mile performances but rather his possible limitation to that minimum trip. On the only occasion he has moved up to 20f (in top class) he was caned by VPU, that did actually happen and only 9 months ago.
MM may be unfortunate that he does not enjoy a rivalry that Moscow did but if he keeps doing it as he is now then I would be happy to concede his parity or superiority to Moscow after another QM and one more Tingle Creek.Forgetting Moscow and A for a minute, myslef and many others have been saying it’s a bit premauture to be saying he’s a wonder horse. No one was worse than myself for saying whoah! He was the largest bet of the NH season for me when he won the QMCC and I backed him for the renwal with half my winnings but I was saying within days his rating was stupid.
I began to doubt him more after Aintree but when I saw him the other day it impressed me even more than he did in the QMCC. Ruby Walsh was jumping out ofhis skin telling everyone how brilliant he is and that’s coming from a man who has ridden Kauto and Denman.
Moscow was good but Master Minded is awsome
Master Minded is without doubt the best two mile chaser I’ve seen since Badsworth Boy – a horse whom Michael Dickinson is on record as saying was the best he ever trained.
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As he is only six there is plenty of time for a credible opponent to appear. He may just end up making them look stupid though and then we’ll be back to square one. He did make a horse that did the Cheltenham/Aintree 2m novice double look pretty stupid as well already this year…
He is built like a sprinter as well so they should avoid the temptation to ever step him up in trip again. Ruby got it right post race.
I think if PN said he was going to run him over 2m4f again Ruby would take him into a horse box and kick the living daylights out of him
That’s the funny thing about champions "A" they do things like that and it’s not that they are brilliant it’s that others aren’t up to scratch.
I was just watching 2 videos of second fav for the QMCC Big Zeb.
I can see why they want to take on MM as he looks to have improved a lot from last season when he beat Thyne Again by 4 lengths.
If you watch is last race he beats Thyne Again by the same distance as before but there is a huge contrast between the two races.
In the first he is all out from a long way out to get to them but in the second he is absolutely hack cantering two out but looks like he blows up approaching the last ( something the commentator says he was entitled to do being his first run of the season). He still runs on and wind though and Thyne Again is still beaten 4 lengths back in third.
He looks a right horse with a big future and on that performace he would probably be all the rage in a normal year but such is the confidence behind Master Minded no one is giving the horse a second thought.
As you say he made Tidal bay look very ordinary which we know he is not.
I doubt if there is any horse other who could make Big Zeb look ordinary but if Master Minded can destroy him like he did VPU last year surely people will give credit where credit is due.Fist where is anyone NOT giving Master Minded his due credit? Sure there are some of us who dispute his "superiority" of Moscow Flyer but thats hardly a criticism of the horse. I don’t think there is anyone that doesn’t accept the horse’s brilliance.
I think the answer lies in the Tingle Creek Ian when
Moscow Flyer beat Azertyuiop and Well Chief and all three ran great races and looked at the top of their form. They were all flatto the borads that day with an equal chance of winning.Here: http://www.youtube.com/results?search_q … type=&aq=f
Some though regard Azertyuiop as being unlucky that day peronally I think he could have finished closer but I doubt if he could have passed Moscow Flyer.
While MF was the best around those 2 were not a million miles behind him. I for one backed Azertyuiop to beat him in the QMCC and still think he would won that day had MF not UR rider, which is debateable.
But here within lies the answer…touch of the Harry Potters there
How do you think Ruby Walsh who rode Azertyuiop many many times would rate him against Master Minded.
This man has done it all and rode the best yet he has used the word "Incredible" to decribe only one horse: Master Minded
I think the answer lies in the Tingle Creek Ian when
Moscow Flyer beat Azertyuiop and Well Chief and all three ran great races and looked at the top of their form. They were all flatto the borads that day with an equal chance of winning.Here: http://www.youtube.com/results?search_q … type=&aq=f
Some though regard Azertyuiop as being unlucky that day peronally I think he could have finished closer but I doubt if he could have passed Moscow Flyer.
While MF was the best around those 2 were not a million miles behind him. I for one backed Azertyuiop to beat him in the QMCC and still think he would won that day had MF not UR rider, which is debateable.
But here within lies the answer…touch of the Harry Potters there
How do you think Ruby Walsh who rode Azertyuiop many many times would rate him against Master Minded.
This man has done it all and rode the best yet he has used the word "Incredible" to decribe only one horse: Master Minded
They were three very high class horses Fist. Azertyuiop and Well Chief were far better than anything Master Minded is facing of course Moscow wasn’t going to beat them by huge distances.
Ruby may be full of superlatives but its human nature isn’t it? When a horse is beating his opposition the way Master Minded is its hard not to get carried away he feels the horse is in a different league to the others and indeed he is the trouble is the others are nothing more than average.
How many times have we heard trainers and jockeys claim "This horse is something special" or "The best I’ve ever ridden" etc. They are people Fist with people’s feelings and emotions they get excited like the rest of us.
From a punters point of view its important not to get carried away on the wave of emotion instead to retain a clear head and deal in matters of fact – as much as is possible anyway.
Master Minded is without doubt the best two mile chaser since Moscow Flyer and is right up alongside Moscow and Badsworth Boy but its difficult to rate him their superior until he proves it by beating a horse / horses of the level of the Azertyuiop’s and Well Chief’s. It isn’t Master Minded’s fault that none currently exist and he can only destroy what is in front of hm.
The best horse Master Minded has beaten to date is Voy Por Ustedes who was a poor Champion Chase winner and on ratings is a far, far better horse over longer trips. It is infact testiment to Voy Por together with the lack of decent two mile chasers that he managed to win at Grade 1 level over two miles but then he was beating horses like Dempsey who in reality was nothing more than a handicapper. Yes Master Minded slammed Voy Por at Cheltenham on ground which really wouldn’t have ideally suited Voy Por (which probably led him to run a few pounds below his best 2 mile form) but Voy Por in turn slammed Master Minded at Aintree over 2 1/2 miles. So what does that prove? It proves that it is very dangerous to take the form of any one race too literally it is better to look at a horse’s overall level of form. In Master Minded’s case his overall level of form points to him being a mid 170’s horse which certainly wouldn’t put him clear of Moscow Flyer.
Master Minded may be the best two mile chaser in history but before I concede that he’s going to have to prove it. Unfortunately for the horse he may never have the opposition to enable him to do so.
Well as the second part of what you have just said is almost identical to what I said 8 months ago, or so and it’s hard to disagree. I was so positive I was right.
However I crossed that bridge when I thought Tidal Bay would find him out and I was totally wrong. Now we have another young pretender in Big Zeb and no doubt others will follow if he kicks him into touch….I just wonder how many years we will have to wait to realise these horses aren’t bad horses.
I still say Tidal Bay will prove to be a top class animal in his own right. I also think his performance over 2 miles in the Arkle was very very good and he did the job at Aintree.
He’s so far ahead of everything thishorse they are betting on what price he will start…what distance he’ll win by…what will be second, whatwill his rating be at the end of the season…everthing points to him being special.
Finally with the greatest respect Ian it takes a lot to get Ruby Walsh as excited as he was the other day..guy was doing handstands and singing "I’m my maws big tufty wean"
Without Well Chief and Azertyuiop, Moscow Flyer wins season 04/05 Tingle Creek by 26+ lengths and Champion Chase by 22+ lengths, with Grade 1 winners in behind.
Its all relative Fists.
MM also beat a 173 champion chaser by 20 lengths…. with another former champion some 40 lengths behind.
Without Well Chief and Azertyuiop, Moscow Flyer wins season 04/05 Tingle Creek by 26+ lengths and Champion Chase by 22+ lengths, with Grade 1 winners in behind.
Its all relative Fists.
Interesting thing about Moscow is that he never seemed to beat horses by any great distance. He was certainly therefore a whole lot cleverer than Badsworth boy for example
For years I thought Moscow was beating very poor horses and he needed an azertioup and well chief to come along so we could all see how good he was.
I love this horse Master Minded. He might be the best Ive seen in fact but Im pretty sure the likes of azertyioup would have had little difficulty beating mahongany blaze by a long way also.
SHL
Take those two out Aragorn and you have a 172 rated Chaser 52 lengths back – it’s all relative as you say.
The one thing we can determine is that Master Minded is the better racehorse
I am one of Moscow’s biggest fans and he was one of the horses that really got me hooked. He did have a habit of always keeping you on the edge of your seat or throwing Geraghty off his. Having said that this horse jumps quicker than any of the three from that generation and I think that is what sets him apart. Not forgetting the fact that he is still only feckin six!!!!!
It’s one thing saying a horse won by a short distance or a long distance and it’s another when you bring the also rans into it.
I am a great believer in judging a horse in one of two ways and find it pays dividends.
1. By what a horse actually beat on the day, not what finished half way down the track. For exmple Sublimity beat Won in the Dark 20/1 by 1/2 a length whos best form prior to that was 3rd behind Celestial Halo. I couldn’t consider backing him for the CH on that form. If you look back and say he beat a CH winner by 5 lengths and last years AIG winner by about 9 lengths then you are looking for trouble. Brave Inca is way past his best and Sizing Europe has definitaly ran 1/2 a stone below his best. In short by CH standards it was a pretty poor contest despite what you could take out of it by looking way down the field at horses that were out of form.
2. Look at the horse himself. Master Minded never touched a twig at Cheltenham nor at Ascot. He gained as much as 2 lengths in the air at some of his fences. He never had to be asked a serious question at any point in both races. He was totally relaxed at all times. He treated the Cheltenham Hill with contemptious ease
Compare that to the negatives of Moscow Flyer.. He often idled in front, he jumped very low, something that had him or his partner on the floor 5 times. He seemed incababale of showing the acceleration of great horses, that it takes to leave good horses in his wake.
He had more good things about him than bad but when push comes to shove he had some chinks in his armour that truly greathorses like
Arkle, Flying Bolt, Persian War, Istabraque, Dunkirk and Badsworth Boy didn’t have.At theirbest these horse would be gone with no chance of defeat. Master Minded hasn’t even been tested because he is just that good……Idoubt if Moscow Flyer would have had the jumping ability to go with him and he certainly didin’t have the kick this horse has.
I seriously doubt if any horse could have gone with him from the top of the hill in last years QMCC. At the time I thought it could be a fluke but the performace he put up the other day was every bit as good.
What he beat isn’t important it is the way he is doing it, keeps sound and if he keeps doing so, taking age into consideration, I can’t see him not winning a record 4 QMCC……….been 40 + years sice Arkle and this horse like him has it all.
If all goes well and he wins the QMCC in a similar fashion this year, I hope some daft bookie goes evens or better for 2010. I will be his first customer.
Was that a bit over the top?
It’s one thing saying a horse won by a short distance or a long distance and it’s another when you bring the also rans into it.
I am a great believer in judging a horse in one of two ways and find it pays dividends.
1. By what a horse actually beat on the day, not what finished half way down the track. For exmple Sublimity beat Won in the Dark 20/1 by 1/2 a length whos best form prior to that was 3rd behind Celestial Halo. I couldn’t consider backing him for the CH on that form. If you look back and say he beat a CH winner by 5 lengths and last years AIG winner by about 9 lengths then you are looking for trouble. Brave Inca is way past his best and Sizing Europe has definitaly ran 1/2 a stone below his best. In short by CH standards it was a pretty poor contest despite what you could take out of it by looking way down the field at horses that were out of form.
2. Look at the horse himself. Master Minded never touched a twig at Cheltenham nor at Ascot. He gained as much as 2 lengths in the air at some of his fences. He never had to be asked a serious question at any point in both races. He was totally relaxed at all times. He treated the Cheltenham Hill with contemptious ease
Compare that to the negatives of Moscow Flyer.. He often idled in front, he jumped very low, something that had him or his partner on the floor 5 times. He seemed incababale of showing the acceleration of great horses, that it takes to leave good horses in his wake.
He had more good things about him than bad but when push comes to shove he had some chinks in his armour that truly greathorses like
Arkle, Flying Bolt, Persian War, Istabraque, Dunkirk and Badsworth Boy didn’t have.At theirbest these horse would be gone with no chance of defeat. Master Minded hasn’t even been tested because he is just that good……Idoubt if Moscow Flyer would have had the jumping ability to go with him and he certainly didin’t have the kick this horse has.
I seriously doubt if any horse could have gone with him from the top of the hill in last years QMCC. At the time I thought it could be a fluke but the performace he put up the other day was every bit as good.
What he beat isn’t important it is the way he is doing it, keeps sound and if he keeps doing so, taking age into consideration, I can’t see him not winning a record 4 QMCC……….been 40 + years sice Arkle and this horse like him has it all.
If all goes well and he wins the QMCC in a similar fashion this year, I hope some daft bookie goes evens or better for 2010. I will be his first customer.
Was that a bit over the top?
I wouldnt argue whether Master Minded was a better jumper than Moscow. Moscow clearly allowed his mind to wander some times as horses travelling so well often do.
I personally think being able to judge the distance of your success to the usual 3 or 4 lenghts is a real positive however. Whats the point of beating a horse by twenty lenghts, it you can beat him by two. Long term, it means you have less miles on the clock and have a better chance of possibly surviving longer time.
Theres also the other issue of Distance. Lets say for arguments sake that Master Minded proves about two pounds a better two miler than Moscow flyer for example but clearly doesnt stay 2 and a half. If someon asks you which was the better horse, the answer would have to be qualified somewhat.
Not sure what you mean by the instant acceleration thing. I have never seen either of these eithers run in a complete crawler because two mile chases or hurdles just dont work like that.
SHL
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