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As TRF obviously has readers from across the politicl spectrum, I thought I would pose the above question to gauge a concensus.
Personally, I’m not a union person and have never signed up to be in a union. I always have/do work within the manufacturng sector. But I could never acually see what I was getting for my money. To set the scene a little futher:
Last July I left employment from a large American owned manufacturing Corporation, to take a position elsewhere. At this company, historically pay agreements were done on a 3 year deal, negotiated between the union members and the plant managers. It usually followed that twice and offer would be made, twice the members would reject and as such the union rep would be called into negotiate. On at least 2 occasins that I am aware, the union rep then advied members to accept the offer or the plant would be closed and sent abroard.
Apparently, on Friday, the workforce were called in a told that thy must vote on not getting a pay rise next year, or redundancies would follow, despite being 2 years into the agreed 3 year deal. Naturally, given the current situation, I expect that the vote would be passed. Indeed, if it was not, then I would expect the union to once again advise members to take.The subs are approximately £2 week to be a member of the union. I couldn’t see what I would be getting and as such never joined. Certainly, I know a few long standing members left after new T&Cs were agreed. Also, much of what thy originally campaigned for is now covered under Health And Safety Laws.
So,to the point – do they have one? Personally I dont think they do, and if I was senior management at a company I would veiw them akin to a boil on the bum – a little bit annoying, but something which ultimately is harmless.
Over to you guys…….
So how exactly are the workforce to view their opinions/ air their grievances….. or should the working man/ woman not be allowed to have one? what is the alternative?
So how exactly are the workforce to view their opinions/ air their grievances….. or should the working man/ woman not be allowed to have one? what is the alternative?
Quite simply on a one to one basis and ultimately if you don’t like it you find a job elsewhere.
And please do not respond and say it isn’t that easy – it is if you have the gumption to do something about it.
I always negotiated my own terms and conditions when I worked and it never did me any harm.
Alchemist, unions have been instrumental in making life at work better for us all. It’s not a political argument at all. They’ve helped with equal opportunities and pay. They promote the rights of ethnic minorities and women in the workplace. They make sure health and safety is a priority and that bosses consider ergonomics when designing and using tools. They help maintain pay levels in difficult circumstances.
As Moe says, they help with grievances, represent workers in tribunals (sometimes kangaroo courts), negotiate payoffs and help organise outplacement courses for people made redundant. They’ve been known to curb the worst excesses of the capitalist impulse too.
You get a lot for twenty five quid a year, sir. As for the threat of moving abroad, well, that’s unfortunate. Yet, I’ve heard rumours that several companies who’ve tried that are on the verge of coming back when things improve. A big chocolate maker, for example. The phenomenon – Insourcing? – is already happening in the US.
Alchemist, unions have been instrumental in making life at work better for us all. It’s not a political argument at all. They’ve helped with equal opportunities and pay. They promote the rights of ethnic minorities and women in the workplace. They make sure health and safety is a priority and that bosses consider ergonomics when designing and using tools. They help maintain pay levels in difficult circumstances.
As Moe says, they help with grievances, represent workers in tribunals (sometimes kangaroo courts), negotiate payoffs and help organise outplacement courses for people made redundant. They’ve been known to curb the worst excesses of the capitalist impulse too.
You get a lot for twenty five quid a year, sir. As for the threat of moving abroad, well, that’s unfortunate. Yet, I’ve heard rumours that several companies who’ve tried that are on the verge of coming back when things improve. A big chocolate maker, for example. The phenomenon – Insourcing? – is already happening in the US.
I’m not suggesting that historiclly unions haven’t dome so good work, I’m just not sure that they have much power nowadays (maybe power would have been a better title than point perhaps), and are a hangover from bygone days.
I don’t personally buy the health and safety issue as its primaily covered by law, and I’m not convinced by the grievances arguemet either – every place I knowof has a grievance procedure, and know of a couple of places at least where the union has been replaed by works councils.
As Paul says, I’m perfectly happy to negotiate for myself. £2 week – not for me.I also deffinately think that it can be linked back to politics. One cant argue the historical links between the Labour party and the unions.
As with so much, there are too many examples of both useful and useless trade union behaviour for me to fall down emphatically on one side of the debate; and I suspect a lot of posters’ views on this will ultimately be informed by how much the unions have ever done for them, if anything at all.
I wouldn’t concur with PaulO’s suggestion that unions are cancers per se; rather, some of those that presume to speak on their behalfs tarnish the reputation of their entire union by assocation. For example, for every gentleman and comparatively gifted / conciliatory mediator like Bill Morris, you also get obstinate, ignorant planks like Bob Crow.
There must be plenty within the RMT who despair every time Crow trots out his "same meat, different gravy" mantra apropos of anything at all, and would just like him to debate with paymasters, government, etc. as a first resort rather than scream for strike action for readily.
On the other side of the coin, membership of trade union UNISON actually proved useful to me and my colleagues during my days in the public library service, when the spectre of Single Status re-assessment / re-grading loomed large.
The library industry’s professional body CILIP, formerly the Library Association, severed all its ties with the trade unions in the early 1970s and has singularly declined to argue the case for librarians’ pay and conditions since then. Accordingly, my employing council’s decision to revise the pay of its Chartered, Masters Degree (and in some cases beyond)-qualified librarians down to the same bracket as its toilet cleaners was met with no response from CILIP, but – thankfully – one from UNISON which was both voluble and ultimately sufficiently persuasive.
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Jeremy Grayson. Son of immigrant. Adoptive father of two. Metadata librarian. Freelance point-to-point / horse racing writer, analyst and commentator wonk. Loves music, buses, cats, the BBC Micro, ale. Advocate of CBT, PACE and therapeutic parenting. Aspergers.
You asked about purpose, Alchemist, not power. I would argue unions still have a purpose for all the reasons I mentioned. I could have worked for USDAW a few years ago and did a fair amount of research – about till design, for example.
Repetitive strain injuries were crippling plenty of the girls at the checkouts. USDAW worked to influence the redesign of the tills – seat height, reach points etc. Everyone benefited, but bosses were slow out of the traps. They needed a push to spend the cash – the union helped to provide that push.
You and paulostermeyer may have the knowledge and confidence to negotiate pay and conditions, but what about minority groups and people less fortunate than yourself? Negotiation is not an easy skill. Working together, people are stronger and so are outcomes.
Compared to the days of the Triple Alliance, you’re probably right about unions losing their teeth (and abiut the historical Labour Party links), but I’d rather have unions than not under any government.
I’ve worked in the manufacturing industry for the past 29 years and I reckon Unions are a necessary evil. If bosses (management) weren’t so mean, petty and devious, there wouldn’t be any Unions.
There are thousands of people in this country who have been disabled and are unable to work through injuries and diseases they have got through their employment. The way the law stands at the moment is, you go on the sick for 6 months on full pay, then you go onto half pay for 6 months and then you get sacked. The onus is on the employee to prove he cannot work due to a work related illness or injury. Without the Union he can’t prove anything or afford to represent himself in court. To my mind this is why we will always need Unions, it’s the cheapest employment insurance you can get.
The down-side of the Unions is that they seem to have lost their way a bit and become a part of the government. They try and promote minorities at the expense of the majority. Remember the court case to allow women to work off-shore in the North Sea? That cost millions and when the Union won the fight, how many women actually went and worked there ??? .. three. That’s not what I am paying my subs for and I don’t see how that is a victory for anybody. Union’s would get taken more seriously if they concentrated on fighting for better pay and conditions for all of their members rather than a select few.
After my "devils advocate" initial response which has sparked some good debate, let me qualify my comments a bit more.
As I stated, personally, I can do better negitiating for myself and therefore see no need for a union.
However I do see there being occasions where individuals cannot get results and some form of collective negotiation is required. To which I would advocate the use of works councils as opposd to Unions.
What is the difference, well the works council represents the employess of a particular employer rather than an industry as a whole.
The big issue I have with unions are they are too politicised. Too many of the leaders are in the role to push their own agendas or feather their own nests – they could not give a toss about their membership they are merely expendable pawns in their own personal fight.
In the bad old days unions exerted too much power – you only have to look at how they controlled the press printing industry with crass over manning, strict demarcation and even phantom employees.
Even, and to be contentious again, it can be argued that Scargill and his cohorts are equally to “blame” for the demise of the mining industry as Mrs Thatcher was.
So yes have collective negotiations at employer level – but there is no place for politicised unions.
As I stated, personally, I can do better negitiating for myself and therefore see no need for a union.
.You strike me as a healthy, intelligent and confident man Paul, one well able to stand on his own two feet, argue his point succinctly and get his own way.
Unfortunately there are many who do not share these attributes and it is they who need the help and assistance of a sympathetic third party
The "if I can do it, so can everyone else" mentality has never washed with me
A true democracy protects the vulnerable from the unscrupulous exploiter
Here’s a couple of anecdotes about why I dislike unions and what they have grown to represent – no names because I don’t want to put anybody’s job at risk.
A company here has a number of employees who are employed as "handymen" and have been for several years (some on better pay than managers due to length of service etc) – they do general repairs etc in the warehouse and offices and canteen. The staff canteen needed painting so the handymen were called in to paint the canteen, which they duly did. However there were a number of pictures on the walls and, yes you’ve guessed it, the handymen didn’t remove the pictures to paint behind them. Their reasoning – "it’s not their job and if the company doesn’t like it – they can call the union"
In the same company, savings were made through new manufacturing processes and cost-cutting re overheads etc – unions insisted on staff getting a cut of these savings even though staff were doing absolutely nothing extra or additional to earn this money.
In a different company, 2 staff members were caught red-handed stealing goods (aluminium) from the company stock-yard – company started disciplinary proceedings but were ultimately advised not to proceed due to cost issues – when the charges were dropped one of the staff members went on sick leave due to stress from the incident on full pay – unions backed him up.
This is not why unions were formed, nor is it protecting the ordinary worker
They promote the rights of ethnic minorities and women in the workplace
They should be looking after all member equally, not "promoting" those with a different coloured skin.
Unions can still have a roll but as Davids example demonstrates, too often this is abused (Tube workers being perfect current example)
Its a delicate balancing act
Within manufacturing, their power is dramatically curtailed becuase of the increasing ease with which jobs can be shifted around the globe. This will not be reversed
Whilst i can from the same type of enviroment as Paul, its simply not that easy for all trades to negotiate in that manner
Some decent comments on here, some that I hadn’t necessarily thought about. Again, maybe I should have titled the thread power rather than point.
However, I certianly haven’t read anything which fundamentally changes my view that unions are pretty toothless organisations in the modern world. It appears to me that they are looked at by a workforce primarily for pay issues. But as Clive points out often the company holds all the cards – accept the offer or lose the jobs…..
I’ve worked in the manufacturing industry for the past 29 years and I reckon Unions are a necessary evil. If bosses (management) weren’t so mean, petty and devious, there wouldn’t be any Unions.
True. Germany manufacting, widely regarded as the best in the world, is highly unionised. However, due to the culture of German management their role is largely reduced.
I don’t personally buy the health and safety issue as its primaily covered by law, and I’m not convinced by the grievances arguemet either – every place I knowof has a grievance procedure
While there is no doubt some truth in what you say. I would suggest there remains in many workplaces a world of difference between the introduction of a law and its implementation the in the said workplace. Similarly with grievance procedures, who is to know if these procedures are fair? Simply because a procedure exists doesn’t necessarily make it either legal or just.
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