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I believe Fabre was genuine when talking about his star in the same way I believed Henry Cecil when he talked about Frankel. When a trainer not known for hyperbole is enthusiastic about a horse they think is special, it’s worth taking note. Mostly I tend to take trainer comments with a pinch of salt though, particularly those who just trot out identical praise for every horse (I’m looking at you “he has so much speed/best we’ve had” AOB). I don’t necessarily believe trainers are trying to mislead punters (although I’m sure it happens occasionally). Most of them tend to say things we can guess for ourselves (“It’s his first run for 700 days so he will come on for it” etc) and some of them talk such utter rubbish, even contradicting things they have said about the same horse previously, that I wonder if they actually know what they’re talking about at all.
Quite right Tonge. Henry Cecil wasn’t exactly putting anyone away by stating Frankel was his most forward 2yo since Wollow after the Royal Lodge, another quote that made me take raise my eyebrows and take notice.
I really don’t understand why the tilted-trilby wink-wink in-the-know crowd, would boast about ignoring trainers comments in response to a quote by a man of few words, and a man of integrity, like Andre Fabre. What would he have to gain by making that up? More like to upset his more high profile stud-owners I would say, and it struck me as both out of character and very interesting when he made it.
I’ve with Clive too here – I sometimes factor a quote in from certain trainers. Obviously not the likes of John ‘Don King’ Gosden, Nicky ‘Its Heavy’ Henderson or ‘Listen, so much speed’ Coolmore stooge O’Brien. I was staggered at the mugs taken in by the Santa Barbaras hype in the spring. But each to their own devices really isn’t it. I doubt any of us is a Patrick Vietch, so nobody is wrong or right.
BUY THE SUN
ok Ian
Agree with tatling and Tonge here but I also wonder if anyone has referred back to the trainers pre race comments after they’ve had a notable winner?
Ive have done that frequently and it certainly led me to take notice of what certain trainers say and how
And does depend on the trainer. that pre xmas 10/1 big hurdle winner of Evan Williams (who I really like). Was hovering over it but there was definitely something he stated which swung it for me.
AOB would be the very worst imo and Jonjo is a waste of time
I also agree with Tonge and TTC.
It’s basically a two-tier sport and Andre Fabre and Henry Cecil were at the top end and had no financial vested interest in being anything other than honest.
Sadly even on the top tier that’s not always true – every decent Group 1 winner/stallion prospect is, by necessity, referred to as “the best I’ve ever trained” by Aidan O’Brien, whose opinions are now sadly worthless because they’re not opinions – they’re marketing.
At the bottom end I’ve had trainers I’ve met forget what lies they told me the previous time we met and completely contradict themselves.
I don’t pull them up on it or take it personally – they need to keep cards close to chest and land gambles to survive – but it similarly means I take anything I’m told with a sackful of salt.
What a game – the horses are the only honest ones in the industry.
No wonder I mute out the humans whenever possible!
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It's the "Millwall FC" of Point broadcasts: "No One Likes Us - We Don't Care"Maybe along with listening to only certain trainers one must also look for the punting trainers , up north both Goldie and Dalgleish like punting there horses when the time is right , Jim loves a multi , each way at nice prices to , Dalgleish in his 2nd season as a trainer won a race with a horse at 20s , I was at the pre parade (Ayr) when this lad walked up to him and handed him a chunk of cash ….he couldnt get it all in one pocket …
I often think that trainers are the salesmen in this game. They have to talk a load of BS about their charges to attract buyers. They can’t exactly say, this horse is a load of rubbish and will never win a race.
The top trainers sponsored by the bookies, they have another agenda.
I’m definitely in the camp of ignoring the trainer’s comments altogether.
Yeah right
Hardened punters trying to out cynic each other. Why bother with the sport then?
So when a trainee says it’s been his target all season and another says we are running him because theres no where else to go; then just ignore the comments?
And the idea that sponsored trainers are sitting in smoked filled rooms to collude with bookies to rip off punters is just pocket talk. They really have the time and inclination ?
What’s the next conspiracy theory? Philip.hobbs organised 9/11 with Elvis?
“Hardened punters trying to out cynic each other. Why bother with the sport then?”
Well, no, just people contributing to the debate.
I don’t feel “out cyniced,” but I do feel Kendicate is broadly on the same page as me.
I’ve worked in the betting industry, I’ve seen patterns of activity regarding horses from a number of yards.
Racing is a two-tier sport on a lot of levels, including integrity.
A lot of it is out of economic necessity as previously stated – prize money is low at the bottom end.
For anyone who has betting as the main driver for their interest in the game, the evidence of your own two eyes plus an ability to interpret what’s in the form book are key, not a load of trainer flannel.
For sure, retrospective comments from people like Cecil and Fabre about their greatest horses can be taken at face value, but in the course of ordinary every day racing I let the horses tell me how good they are, or aren’t, not their trainers.
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It's the "Millwall FC" of Point broadcasts: "No One Likes Us - We Don't Care"At the lower end there is bound to be plenty of skulduggery going on. I’d be surprised and frankly disappointed if there wasn’t. Some will be honest, some just doing it for for the love of it and some who are on the fiddle to supplement the meagre money they race for. I know what I’d be doing if I could.
Things are largely honest at the top I would say. If trainers are talking nonsense then perhaps they are doing it to deceive the competition? That competition being genuine at this level. Some of what some trainers say isn’t helpful to punters but I don’t believe it’s because there’s some grand conspiracy against them, they simply don’t care either way.
I will however say that close links between bookies and trainers/jockeys are not a good look.
I broadly agree, Richard.
At the top end on the Flat prize money and potential stud values dwarf the amounts that could be made from betting, and Pattern races are very straight.
Ditto the top Jumps races.
It’s further down the food chain – Class 4 and 5 Handicaps over Jumps and Class 5 and 6 Handicaps on the Flat, where you’re at the sharp end and prize money plus training fees alone simply won’t keep a lot of yards operating viably.
I think people like racing for different reasons and for some they love the human aspect and especially the “talk.”
I don’t – I don’t have the slightest interest in the human protagonists.
To me trainers and jockeys are just walking sets of performance statistics, strike rates etc.
It’s their statistical performance while actually doing their jobs, the racecourse performances of the horses they are associated with, and the betting that interests me.
I don’t have the slightest interest in anything they say when they open their mouths, not least because vested interests (principally appeasing the owner) guarantee that little of what they say is what they actually think, and some aren’t even good judges of their own horses anyway.
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It's the "Millwall FC" of Point broadcasts: "No One Likes Us - We Don't Care"“I will however say that close links between bookies and trainers/jockeys are not a good look.”
Agree. It is a very bad look. I am not sure if it would be legal but I would prefer to see a ban on trainers and jockeys being sponsored by bookmakers. It gives rise to a perception they are in the pay of the bookie, who is not just giving them money for the publicity.
I am not suggesting anything improper is happening but it looks as if it might. In my view it is better to not allow that perception to exist at all.
Ian. It’s the blanket rubbishing of comments that baffles me. I find it bizarre
I have always thought jockey input is overplayed in racing but surely the eye catching booking here and there resonates?
Cant agree about trainers at all. They have their strengths habits and trends. Trainer form is logical too
I am right behind bookie sponsorship. Anything that winds up the paranoid moaning tramps in the betting shop is fine by me
Back in the day a mate of mine used to spin incredible conspiracy theories to the usual bunch of wetherspoons soap Dodgers in hills and mecca in richmond
We were in hysterics. I’ll have to remember some.
Habitual losing punters are the most gullible and naive of all
Clive, obviously nothing is black and white and I’m sure if I listened to and read every single trainer interview I’d see or hear something of note occasionally.
But I honestly cba – most of it is cliche-ridden flannel and I’ve had 40-odd years of it.
If I actually had to listen to the people in racing in order to follow it, I would honestly walk away from the game.
Thankfully, I don’t and I still love the sport – in silence! – after all these years.
But different people like racing for different reasons and I get where you’re coming from.
But it’s not where I’m coming from and never will be.
Each to their own.
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It's the "Millwall FC" of Point broadcasts: "No One Likes Us - We Don't Care"It’s just one factor. Fair enough
No where near the most important one but no one has said it was
I do actually agree with some of what you say, Clive.
There is the naïveté of those who think racing is completely straight.
But there is also the naïveté of those who think racing is completely bent and use it as a convenient excuse to abnegate all personal responsibility for their own failings as punters.
Betting shops are full of people who think it’s clever to be cynical about the game being bent, but manifestly aren’t clever enough themselves to stop betting on a sport they claim is completely fixed.
As previously stated, I see racing as broadly a two-tier sport with a few grey areas inbetween.
I am "The Horse Racing Punter" on Facebook
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It's the "Millwall FC" of Point broadcasts: "No One Likes Us - We Don't Care"
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