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Interesting comments Barry. <br>Zorro and I were chatting about this earlier on the back of his piece in today’s Post. I felt that the figures Mark Davies of BF was quoting were potentially a bit misleading.<br>ie – 50% of new BF customers are football punters. That might sound shockng but given that 50% of new BF customers are from outside of the UK and Ireland hardly surprising at all in fact.<br>Similarly suggestions that turnover on horseracing is smaller than a sport like rugby is clearly nonsense, although there will be ocassions when other sports peak or ‘spike’ in terms of turnover and with BF there are a lot of sports (tennis, cricket, golf, rugby, football to name a few obvious ones) that are much more ‘traders markets’ and therefore exchange player friendly than racing can ever be. The World Cup was massive for BF and for bookmakers but racing turnover itself didn’t actually nosedive as far as I can see.<br>We need to distinguish between racing turnover being in decline (which as far as I’m aware it isn’t) and racing’s slice of a massively expanded betting cake being smaller than it was when it was the overwhelmingly dominant betting medium.<br>More importantly though we need to understand the importance of margin in these debates, given the link between the profitabliity of offering bets on racing and the funding of racing.<br>The irony of the situation is that what is good for punters – ie ever smaller margins, is in danger of starving the sport itself. <br>Isn’t half the problem Barry that while you’re pointing out the potential problems many others will see betting on racing reaching record levels with much higher income coming into the sport from betting than was the case prior to GPT and punters enjoying lower margins etc?<br>In other words, turnover is up, racing’s income is up but it’s market share is down and a further decline in margin would see racing’s income start to move in the other direction?<br>It’s going to be a tricky balance to strike though isn’t it because at some point we’re all going to have to grasp the need to balance the punters’ needs against those of the sport to provide a long term future?<br>Or am I completely missing the point?<br>Oh, and one last question, what percentage of your betting shop customers, would you estimate, come into the shop in the first place because of racing?<br>
Sean, have several customers that only come in to play fixed odds betting terminals ( FOBT’S) ( gaming machines).
But what is noticeable that during festival meetings or group racing cards my bet slip turnover is doubled.
my over all horse race profit margins are below 5%
and only 3% on-course
neither are sustainable long term,
Ladbrokes and W.Hill annual accounts showed that their phone business which is mainly singles on horse racing operated at a loss after expenses.
the product aint any good
Fascinating stuff Barry and thank you for that information. Question is, you say will someone listen, but what is it you would want them to do? Is it that tax is too high, what changes do need to be made for the benefit of racing?<br>richard
But what is noticeable that during festival meetings or group racing cards my bet slip turnover is doubled.
There’s hope after all. Someone tell the BHB!
thanks for that Barry. There’s some really interesting stuff on this thread.<br>What I’m still not clear on is whether or not racing turnover is strong enough to counteract the drop in margin? 5% of 100 is the same as 10% of 50 after all. <br>Looking at your on course figures and the phone betting figures you mention for the big firms the answer would seem to be no in which case the tipping point has already been reached and has to be reversed.
On the other hand, surely margins can’t be driven much lower (exchange markets are already close to 100%) so has this trend now flattened out – in which case everyone needs to adjust to the reality of a higher turnover/lower margin world?<br>Or do you see it getting worse in terms of margin?<br>Or, is the problem that margin is now so tight that were turnover to drop off (in the face of growing competition from other forms of betting) that the racing product could very quickly become unsustainable?<br>TDK makes the point that
"So, for each bet that is placed on Racing, the sport is getting less back than it used to, and racing is getting a smaller and smaller piece of the overall betting pie as time goes on. "
That seems to be absolutely spot on but how much of a problem that is depends on how big the overall betting pie actually is. Unless I’m missing something, provided the pie is sufficiently large, margins can drop and racing’s share of the market can reduce and racing can still make a net gain if the turnover has increased sufficiently.
As Richard says, what is it that needs to be adjusted, assuming anyone decided to listen? :biggrin:
Seriously though – maybe I’m a glass half full type but all is far from lost.<br>Another perspective on all this would be to say that despite the massive growth in online casinos and poker, the heavily marketed rise of sports betting, the increasingly international profile of bookies customer bases and the introduction into high street betting shops of what are actually casino products the amount of betting turnover that racing has generated has remained remarkably strong. The sport itself has more horses, more practitioners, more racegoers etc than ever before. There are clear signs of a more serious and rigorous approach to integrity from the regulators and all in all if we get things right over the next few years racing can cement it’s position as a successful sport and industry that employs many thousands and provides enjoyment for millions.<br>Getting things right includes striking the right balance in terms of margins in order to safeguard both the interests of punters and the future of the sport but it shouldn’t be beyond the wit of all involved to pull that off. I realise of course that past form is not exactly encouraging in this respect but I do see signs of improvement!<br>
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Quote: from seanboyce on 10:22 am on July 23, 2006[br]…. if we get things right over the next few years racing can cement it’s position as a successful sport and industry that employs many thousands and provides enjoyment for millions.<br>
<br>Very interesting discussion all round but it must be borne in mind that there is a fundamental dichotomy between racing as "sport" and "industry" as best exemplified by the way the mega-rich flat battalions more or less monopolise the top events.
Furthermore, racing is seen by many youngsters as outdated: society is no longer in thrall of the horse, as it was in the pre-mechanised age, and it is only natural that something so "old-fashioned" doesn’t have a great deal of public pulling power in today’s high-tech world. Factoring in that it takes years to develop a deep relationship with the sport, through the knowledge of breeding lines and the form book as well as the familiarisation with the turf’s characters (equine as well as human), is it any surprise that today’s youth, brought up on a diet of instant gratification, are not exactly falling over themselves to take up racing as a pursuit?
The harsh reality of the situation is that a considerable part of racing’s appeal was based on a human desire for speed (and its inherent danger) which has been superseded by motorbikes and Formula One cars. Further image problems stem from contemporary concerns over animal cruelty and the integrity of the sport.
Of course, there are ways in which the racing industry is trying to appeal to younger customers: the innovation of popular music concerts after racing (although some of the artists selected for such events are laughably passe) and the dumbing down of television coverage are blatant attempts to contemporise racing’s image and may be deemed to be successful by those who make such decisions but are, in fact, having a negative impact on the sport as it becomes homogenised and loses much of what makes it so special.
The fact remains that racing is competing with many other forms of entertainment for the public’s spending money and, once the superficial appeal of the bright colours and possibility of winning a few quid fades, remains an arcane and anachronistic sport run by people from a bygone age to many of its potential recruits.
The "sport" is not in such rude health as the powers that be would like to believe and it is, sadly, inevitable that it will become more and more of a minority interest over the coming years.
Surely the problem is that racing is run in the interests of bookies and that conflicts with the long-term interests of the sport.
In-running, which could have been a real growth area is dieing as a result of a conscious decision by ATR to delay pics.
We are having our turf courses dug up and replaced with racing indistinguishable from Portman Park at the bookie’s behest.
The whole burgeoning racing calendar seems to have been dictated by one man’s cosy quid pro quo relationship with his favourite bookie.
Racing will die in this country as sure as night follows day as long as bookie leeches are running it.
They are a cancer
Why do we tolerate these gangster scum that are destroying the sport?
Best thread on here for some time…
Thought Zorro’s piece was very selective in its use of stats (will tennis be busier on betfair than racing in november? i think not :) ) but TDK’s peice is excellent. Post of the day!
I think the lazy quick fix mentality is the crucial element here. Racing is tricky. very rewarding and a beautiful sport in many ways, but hard work
One small thing i noticed myself was at Newmarket last week. Place was mobbed (too much) and i had the 9/2 fav in the first race (name escapes me). I saw the bookies payout list and i was the biggest winner :o
I tell u now…thats frightening
Glenn
can you say what you mean? :)
Is that true though…Kempton and sandown and lingfeild same day TDK?
Thats amazing. U can actually see Kempton from Sandown…which says it all really
Yes the stats were selective, Clivex. Hard to be comprehensive in 600 words. That doesn’t affect the tennis in November though. That’s an annual figure.<br>The point is racing is losing its market share among the computer users – that is the youth, and losing it very fast, no matter that turnover is holding up.<br>Agree about the quality of the posts.<br>Good afternoon, Glenn.:cool:
yquem21’s second paragraph is particularly perceptive. Must admit that hadn’t occurred to me at all.
Can I just add that the conversation about too much racing seems to occur every mid-summer.
The phenomenon whereby even hardcore users with an unabiding passion for something lose interest and desire is known as Stimulus Satiation. Or, you can have too much of a good thing.
I wish the BHB would read their psychology rather than their financial textbooks. They might know it as the Law of Diminishing Returns.
The good news is (for EC,apracing and others) is the effect wears off after a break.:cool:
I’m the last one to be complacent, I’ve already stated elsewhere and on this site that I think the next few years are crucial for the future of the sport. But….<br>The idea that people in this country are now betting more on tennis or rugby than on racing is nonsense. Betfair described racing to me yesterday as ‘absolutely our core product’. Exchange players from Sweden, Australia and elsewhere can hardly be expected to lump on our racing.<br>Bookies have roulette machines in their shops that do a roaring trade with roulette junkies who would normally have to wait for the local casino to open before getting their fix but can now turn over fortunes on the tables in their local betting shop and bookies make absolute bombs from these roulette machines. BD says he has ‘several’ customers who visit his shop to play these machines. I’m not surprised. That still leaves all the rest of his regular customers who are there presumably to bet primarily on racing and dogs.<br>As for the issue of racing’s appeal to youth let’s not kid ourselves.<br>Racing has never been trendy cool or sexy. I was mortified as a shcool kid when my Granny and Grandad emerged from the local bookies in front of all my mates. Pathetic but true. I thought racing was for oldies, or saddoes or toffs. If anything the image of racing has improved since then and certainly the social acceptibiilty of betting has increased absolutely out of sight.<br>There are various serious issues to wrestle with in the future. Integrity and future funding are the key ones for me but I also understand the need to appreciate how competitive the overall betting and gaming field is. <br>We can’t have it both ways though. We can’t have accessible, open all hours, female friendly betting shops and changed attitudes to betting and expect to keep racing as the closed shop at the heart of that new betting environment. Racing will need to work hard for its share but don’t forget it is the only sport of those we’ve been discussing that exists to provide betting opportunities. There is no other sport that even comes close to comparing in terms of coverage, exposure and frequency of opportunities.<br>None of this means we should take racing’s continued success for granted but nor should we be writing it’s epitaph just yet.
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