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I did have a lengthy chat with an on course layer of some experience.
What he had to say re the practice of shortening such horses was interesting and, I have to say, changed my perspective somewhat.Boycie,
He may have changed your perspective but he’s unlikely to change ours unless you share what he said.
Hi Glenn, not sure I was intent on changing any one else’s perspective, just explaining my position which is that we need to (to misquote Blair) concern ourselves with the causes of these crimes as well as the crimes themselves.
The gist of this layer’s argument (and he was not at Lingfield on this particular day) was that the motivation for shortening to avoid a rule 4 would be very compelling if your working overround on a race was only in single figures anyway. ie if you take out the refunded money on the NR, with no R4 you’d be losing a substantial percentage of an already thin take on the race.
I’m not excusing such practices just suggesting that racing needs to understand what such events tell us about the current betting environment. Is it wrong? Of course it is. How to move forward is the question racing will need to get it’s head round sooner rather than later.Rule 4 is flawed no doubt, but you can tell a lot about certain big bookies by how they address those flaws. A three-pronged approach has been adopted in the past couple of years:
1) Make ‘mistakes’ in applying rule 4, by either getting the applicable price wrong or not applying rules as they are written (eg saying they will take last early price and taking live show price when it gives a bigger rule 4).
2) Get a Mr Disgusted of Tunbridge Wells (I forget his name – hadn’t heard of him before and haven’t heard of him since, he was a former press association guy if memory serves) to completely rewrite rule 4 deductions. Strangely he adjusted everything upwards while completely ignoring the circumstances where the punter is disadvantaged ie when the number of places decrease or the overound is high. They then tried to bring these amendments in without question before hastily backtracking!
3) The chalk moves you see on bolters and the like. I’m not sure if the recent Lingfield move was such an example but there have been clearcut cases in the past.
It’s like a lot of things – they take but don’t give. They want everything their own way rather than correcting things for everyone.
They clip fav’s SPs as they have multiples rolling up without extending anything else. They don’t takes bets on bad each-way races but don’t want to change the terms to address the issue as they love 1/4 odds 1-2 seven runner handicaps. They make sure they are covered when there’s a non-runner but leave punters to suffer their fate when the boot is on the other foot – take a look at the 1.30 at Lingfield on Wednesday and ask yourself what sort of bet you would have been left with if Flawed Genius was declared a non-runner.
Glen poster of the year ,. your kiddin right
, then off to a wed night jolly at Kempton park to celebrate his genius er I think not . I mean even the mere suggestion just wont do Keep em comin Glen , at least they wont win many more awards for running races to classical music , I hear the resident foxes even scarpered , which will reduce the ever dwindling attendance even more !!!
Ricky
On the subject of Brian Friel, perhaps those struggling at Kempton will choose the lesser of two evils and say "Philadelphia (Park), Here I Come!"
my first suggestion about signal failure was not the reason the show contracting 16/1-10/1.
my own investigation has exposed another of the many flaws in collating prices.
It would help a lot if you were able to be a little bit more expansive Barry! It’s more than the system of returning prices isn’t it? The whole system wants looking at doesn’t it. Too many layers can’t make it pay at all which makes them vulnerable to pressure and prone to bending the rules to make ends meet. Too many people – including far too many in the media – keep comparing on course and off course markets with exchange markets without acknowledging the enormous differences between the models. People in racing don’t understand the betting market at all. I don’t see how we can continue with the status quo and I think it’s the perfect time for a proper cards on the table discussion about where we’ve got to and how we’re going to move forwards.
ps – Rory, it may not have come to that yet but we’re on course for needing a Faith Healer the way we’re headed!Too many layers can’t make it pay at all which makes them vulnerable to pressure and prone to bending the rules to make ends meet
….so they play along with the off course industry, which is what it always comes back to in the end.
As usual racing is asking what the bookmakers can do for it rather than helping itself by putting up a viable off and oncourse alternative, The Tote.
I GUARANTEE you, a Tote win market with a 5% takeout would sort the all weather returns problem in 24 hours flat.
Andy Stewart where are you?
Thank God for sensible, rational people who have an understanding of not only how the SP system works, but how the on-course and off-course markets operate and differ so much. You could all do a lot worse than to listen to Sean Boyce who has come out with the most intelligent comments so far on this thread.
As for Barry (or was is Patrick?!) Dennis, he won’t be any more expansive as he is wholly incapable of it, seeing that his own understanding of how the SP system works is incorrect anyway. Best stick to inspecting the horses in the paddock Bazza before you price up – or are you too busy holding court in your deckchair in the middle of the ring?!?
s/l top guesser, been to the paddock twice in 50 years.
stop hidding behind silly names come amd front me, dare ya.
or perhaps like other posters, frightened.
please please come and put me straight, I need your expertise and advice.
I have never quite worked out why the High Street bookmakers are so weak about this issue. If you disregard the shortening a price to invoke a rule 4 deduction for a moment, the only people who SP returns concern, are the punters who bet in the shops at SP, & the big bookmakers who take the SP bets…and only they know what their SP liabilities are, so they surely must have every right to determine the SP themselves (or influence the existing one), based on their liabilities?
I’d guess it doesn’t happen like that because the authorities & to a degree the bookmakers feel that an independent-ish SP gives it some sort of integrity or credability. It doesn’t, because;
a. unless you’ve had your head buried in the sand for years, people realise the High St bookies have been using money to shift on course prices for years, probabably decades, and
b. the volume of trade on most on-course markets is now peanuts compared to the total market volume (that’s unless you claim that on-course bookmakers using the exchange terminals counts).Probably in the days of 10% off-course tax & no exchanges the on-course market was the place to collate SP’s. It’s not now.
The Ring are practically still stuck at Hyde Park Corner, when they ought to have been encircling the globe.
Totally agree Cavellino re a competitive Tote and would certainly see that as part of the longer term solution. Might also make British racing more appealing internationally too. Also agree Colin that -on many days – the on course market is not the best place to determine SPs.
High volume low margin models will surely be the way forward and a very low take out tote system might well work in racing’s favour. Another part of the equation might also be a review of both the taxation of exchange businesses (by which I mean those running businesses via exchanges rather than the exchanges themselves) and their contribution to the sports they offer markets on. As I’ve said before racing needs to get it’s head round -and preferably it’s hands on – betting. I think we’re still some way from that at the moment.I remember in the good old days of the "80"s and "90"s when on course it was "Them and us" and the majority of the time it was good banter,one almost formed a relationship with ones fav Layer!I remember snaffling Even money about Dancing Brave when his stable knew he was a 1/2 shot,the day he won his maiden at Sandown.Henry Cecils 2yo 1st time out record was phenomenal,you could get 6/4 about what would be Even money today.The times are a changin! These days its "Us against the Machine",its almost like something out of Terminator!On course Bookmakers are offering a public service,to a public that have a choice of services at their disposal,ie Spreadbetting,Backing/laying,guaranteed prices etc,all these different betting systems allow the punter to place their bets before they even go racing,not only that but Betfair is a system that benefits the punter to stay at home and watch on TV!If 20,000 fans go to watch a football match,thats 20,000 guaranteed to fund the finances of the club!If 20,000 go racing,5,000 may have already placed their bets and dont bet a penny,there by reducing the amount the bookmakers on course can benefit from!I am afraid the days of on course bookmaking are numbered,as they are being crushed by the machine!I respect the layer on course who still trys to compete with this modern age and offers 1/4 odds a place,those who are going 1/6th and even an 1/8th will be Terminated unfortunately!
I can assure you Barry that I am no ‘guesser’ then again you appear to call everyone that who disagrees with you!
As for the paddock comment, you don’t have a very good memory do you. Either that or yourself and Patrick haven’t been communicating what you’ve been posting! A few weeks ago you claimed that [and I quote] “my prices fluctuate dramatically after paddock inspection..
If anyone is guessing, it is you in your self appointed role of spokesman for the bookmakers. Personally I find it hilarious that you profess to be an expert on exactly what is happening at these Kempton evening meetings yet you yourself haven’t been sighted standing at such meetings in a long, long time!
, then off to a wed night jolly at Kempton park to celebrate his genius er I think not . I mean even the mere suggestion just wont do 
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