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If Frankel gets beaten I’ll be expecting a full refund!
http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u307/ChristopherPHammond/yt.jpg
You, my friend, should thank then for the privelege of being there when he got beaten.What an occasion that will be!
…there can be no doubt, so I don’t know who these doubters are as it’s unlikely anyone alive today has seen a better horse over 8 furlongs. Singular, yet homogenous, you shouldn’t be concerned that not everyone get’s so excited by it…
..those of us who emanate from a different era, including Warren Place, have often seen it differently, as an example:-
1958: 2yo wins at 5f [twice]
1959: 7f Free H’cap, 1000 Guineas, Oaks, Sussex Stakes, Yorkshire Oaks, Champion Stakes
1960: wins at 10f [Victor Wild Stakes], plus Coronation Cup.
1961: Coronation Stakes [10f Brig. Gerard], Coronation Cup, Rous Memorial [8f], Scarborough Stakes [8f]
19 races, 14 wins, 5 seconds…
.. Frankel never had this ability although shortly we may see an indication that he is improving with age and that as a 5 yo he might have achieved a greater range to compete with it…
..in my opinion, it’s such criteria as exampled above, that should be used to judge a horse’s merit – range and longevity at the highest level. It doesn’t need a number.
Wow – she sounds incredible UM. Why is she never mentioned in the lists of great horses? (i dont ask this facetiously i am intrigued)- wasnt there a race named after her? Did Piggot ride her? (Am on holiday so cant look it up for fear of being slapped by other half!)
Unfortunately Frankel is to be retired at the end of the season so will never meet your criteria.
"this perfect mix of poetry and destruction, this glory of rhythm, power and majesty: the undisputed champion of the world!!!"
…there can be no doubt, so I don’t know who these doubters are as it’s unlikely anyone alive today has seen a better horse over 8 furlongs. Singular, yet homogenous, you shouldn’t be concerned that not everyone get’s so excited by it…
..those of us who emanate from a different era, including Warren Place, have often seen it differently, as an example:-
1958: 2yo wins at 5f [twice]
1959: 7f Free H’cap, 1000 Guineas, Oaks, Sussex Stakes, Yorkshire Oaks, Champion Stakes
1960: wins at 10f [Victor Wild Stakes], plus Coronation Cup.
1961: Coronation Stakes [10f Brig. Gerard], Coronation Cup, Rous Memorial [8f], Scarborough Stakes [8f]
19 races, 14 wins, 5 seconds…
.. Frankel never had this ability although shortly we may see an indication that he is improving with age and that as a 5 yo he might have achieved a greater range to compete with it…
..in my opinion, it’s such criteria as exampled above, that should be used to judge a horse’s merit – range and longevity at the highest level. It doesn’t need a number.
Longevity as a primary measurement of a race horse is a limited and frankly inefficient way of observing and assessing a race horses ability, and how it compares with others.
As is it’s ability to race over a wide variety of distances. Now Frankel isn’t the best example, given it’s entirely plausible if campaigned differently, he would have showed elite ability over both sprinting and middle distances, but a race horse that shows higher ability at a specific distance is more valuable than a horse who runs over a variety of distances. As admirable of STS was, it is unquestionable in my mind that Frankel showed greater dominance over his distance, and greater ability at his best distance than STS did at his best distance.
It doesn’t matter if you get excited about it or not, rather, it’s simply the bizarre way a few seem to assess a horses ability on that is perplexing. I’d rather see something we may never see again at a specific distance rather than something merely exceptional at a variety of distances, given one is clearly more significant and desirable than the other.
You, my friend, should thank then for the privelege of being there when he got beaten.What an occasion that will be!
I believe him unbeatable to be perfectly honest Andy. Certainly at a mile and if in good health. And he’s that far above anything racing at this time that I cant see him being knocked over even over a two furlong greater trip which may ultimately prove not to be his best.
We’ll see next week.
I believe this horse to be the greatest we’ve seen in living memory. It isn’t just the fact that he wins every time he runs, but rather the pure unadulterated destruction he metes out to his opponents. I’ve been watching racing for over forty years and nothing I’ve seen, past or present, current footage or archive, has even remotely had the presence this horse has. You only have to look at the huge list of the most informed people involved in racing who are happy to acknowledge this horse as the best they’ve ever seen to know it is so.
Oo lucky you, Hammy. I’ll just be televiewing I’m afraid, but better than nothing!
I actually prefer watching racing or footie on TV to watching it live in most cases Reetlass. I’m hoping I might get a photo opportunity somewhere on the racecourse with Frankel though. (Assuming he does run in the race.)
Never been to York before so I am very much looking forward to it.
Hammy can you keep a secret?I agree with you but need to take the opposite view to keep my name in lights.
Wow – she sounds incredible UM. Why is she never mentioned in the lists of great horses? (i dont ask this facetiously i am intrigued)- wasnt there a race named after her? Did Piggot ride her? (Am on holiday so cant look it up for fear of being slapped by other half!)
Unfortunately Frankel is to be retired at the end of the season so will never meet your criteria.
…well, she used to be mentioned before Sea Bird came along. A panel of racing journalists voted her 2nd only to Ribot during that period but of course with the passing of time both these two tend to get overlooked…
I would say she was the Frankel of her day, at least from ’59 through ’60 and considered unbeatable, and described as ‘the filly of the century’.. ‘a racing freak’…
Noel Murless trained her – Piggott rode when she became a star but got her boxed in at Ascot in the King George where she failed to get past Aggressor…. Piggott deflected the criticism with his usual wit ”the grass was too long”..
..enjoy your holidays…
…Clacton…Benidorm…?
It doesn’t look as good as the King George did beforehand and is unlikely to deliver as much as that race did. If they had said the best mile contest of the season then they may have had a point, but only by virtue of the fact that it looks immensely competitive. The fact that the best horse at the distance is not partaking means that it is something of a false claim. Unfortunately the trade paper is given to unjustifiable hyperbole and its views owe themselves to the infiltration of tabloid journalism.
Thr OR rating for the 1st 6 home in KG 123, and the Jacques le Marois 122.5, and Excelebration has a higher OR rating than Danedream or Nathaniel. On paper I’d say that the Marois was every bit as good a race as the KG.
If Frankel had run in the Marois the average of 1st 6 home(assuming Frankel could manage that
) becomes 126.3, therefore it can be argued the mile division is stronger than the middle distance division.Theoretically you could say that Frankel has passed the sternest test there is for him, five times. The only question left is will he stay the extra 2 and bit furlongs, if he does there is nothing than give a test never mind beat him.
Danedream is rated at 123 for her win in the King George but you have to add the 3lb allowance to get her true rating ie 126. This is 5lbs below her Arc victory. Yesterday Excelebration did not run to his best in winning, at most 124 but more likely 122 or 123.
And your point is?
If you look on the RP web-site it tells you the OR of every horse on the day of the race. The figures I’ve quoted are correct assuming the information on the RP web-site is correct.
I know that not every horse runs to it’s rating every time, but the OR gives us a measure of the sort of ability a horse is capable of, I know its not an exact science and there are many other variable factors. By using the OR this probably gives us as good a method as any of assessing the quality of a race before its run, especially an open G1 with most of the field well exposed.
The racing press, it would seem to me, were quite justified in their "hyperbole" because on paper before the race it was every bit as good as the King George.
In some ways the Marois was a more satisfactory race in that at least some of the leading 3 year colt & filly milers were in the field. The only 3 year old at Ascot was the Japanese colt Deep Brilliant, surely it would have been more intersting had Camelot been there.
After the Marois we know for certain that over a mile Frankel is in a different league, we know that Excelebration is clear 2nd best and we know last year’s milers are better than this years. The King George answered non of those questions over 12F.
Oh come on Ivanjica. We all know there have been two camps on this one and you are right i could find numerous examples of members of this forum who have doubted HOW good he is based on WHAT he has beaten.
Yes, but my point is that you are giving an inaccurate impression by constantly making reference to Frankel "doubters" when to my eyes at least the obvious and main division in opinion has centred around whether or not he needs to win at least one of the long established 10-12f Championship races. It is my opinion that in doing so it lends credence to the overly defensive position you then adopt. Putting it another way, anybody who disagrees with your view of Frankel’s career past, present and future is shot down in flames in a McCarthy-esque tirade, dismissing them as "Frankel Doubters".
I dont expect you or anyone to put their hands up and say i was wrong but am disappointed that your post turns the whole thing round on me.
I don’t believe I have turned anything around on you. I am simply describing the impression I have gleaned from reading and on occasions entering into the Frankel debates on this site. Your posts about the great horse seem to be overly defensive and having looked back through the relevant threads I haven’t seen a significant level of evidence to justify your reaction.
As a racing fan, if you cannot enjoy and appreciate a horse like Frankel i am not sure how you can ever appreciate anything.
This is a familiar sounding line from you which on its own is fine. But I have come across it on a number of occasions being directed at posters who simply ponder what might have been (i.e. Derby’s, King George’s and so on).
With respect i think the campaign debate is another argument entirely and i have myself questioned it many times in posts. I have been waiting like everyone else for him to step up in trip and think it is somewhat overdue.
I am afraid that isn’t the impression you have given.
I have never thought of myself as a negative poster so am disappointed that you see me thus.
It wasn’t my intention to infer that you are a negative poster per se. I can only comment on the threads where we have exchanged views and thus far, as far as I recall, they have been Frankel ones. So nothing personal intended and apology humbly extended.
I hope we can all enjoy the last chapters of this remarkable story.
Why would anybody, with more than a passing interest in the sport, not enjoy Frankel? I travelled to Goodwood to see him for the first time on a racecourse the other week (I was lucky enough to visit Warren Place last August) and the hairs stood up on my neck as he strolled around the paddock like he owned the place. I sensed that I was in the presence of greatness, the like of which I doubt I will ever see again – and bear in mind I was at Churchill Downs in 2010 to see the great "Z" and Epsom in 1981 to see Shergar. I will watch in awe when he wins next week, and also at Ascot when he brings the curtain down on his illustrious career.
But that does not mean that I haven’t the right to want connections to aim him at the Arc instead.
And your point is?
The 4th home in the King George achieved a rating of 122 in that race. Excelebration probably only ran to that in winning the Marois. While the Marois was a good field, it lacked the top performer at the distance, the King George had the top European middle distance horse, and a top supporting cast, who won despite not producing her best form yet still gave the top performance over 12f in Europe thus far this season.
Ok Ivanjica – i’ll take that on the chin. It is certainly not my intention to be defensive although i will continue to DEFEND Frankel.
I get very passionate about the horse as you can tell and sometimes find the likes of Andyod, UM, Del Boy and a couple of others overly harsh in their criticism of his campaign and the form of the horses he has beaten. Excelebration is the main case in point as several argued that he had beaten little and was undeserving of his high rating. The inference was clearly that Frankel was not beating a very good Group 1 horse but just a decent one. I wanted to defend this. UM even posted that Frankel had recently failed to pass a handicapper in a recent gallop (although this COULD have been one of her little jokes).
I dont want to give the impression that i attack anyone who has a different idea to me and i always like to think i see both sides of an argument. I HAVE also questioned parts of his campaign but am more than happy to leave those decisions to a man with a bit more experience and knowledge than me.
I’m glad you enjoyed seeing him. York will be my 7th time and i think i am looking forward to that one more than any of the others as it will be his opportunity to tick the last box – the verstility one. It should be a cracking race with St Nic.
Finally – UM i am actually on the Algarve but i did once holiday in Clacton as a 10 year old. I lost all my pocket money on day 1 on the pier on the horse racing machine. A sad sign of what was to come and the most miserable week of my life!
"this perfect mix of poetry and destruction, this glory of rhythm, power and majesty: the undisputed champion of the world!!!"
Wow – she sounds incredible UM. Why is she never mentioned in the lists of great horses?
To students of the game, well to those of a certain age maybe, Petite Etoile is regarded as one of the great fillies. Her Timeform rating of 134 places her joint fifth with All Along behind Allez France & Habibti on 136, and Pebbles & Dahlia on 135. Just below are Zarkava, Miesque and Indian Skimmer on 133
Petite Etolie, Allez France, Dahlia and All Along ran as mares i.e as 5yo+
) becomes 126.3, therefore it can be argued the mile division is stronger than the middle distance division.
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