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Harry Whittington hits the spot:
Whereas Anthony Honeyball, as Ham rightly points out, is an outrageous hypocrite.
Why is Honeyball a hypocrite? He has explained why he entered Ms Parfois last year (justified by her recent run in the MN) and that he got an ex-pro to ride. Honeyball is not asking for the race to be cancelled, just to be changed.
My position is quite clear, it shouldn’t be changed. A line must be drawn here and now. It’s totally wrong and short sighted to dismember whichever specific race happens to be the latest one at a high profile meeting to, in any given renewal, have untypical and unfortunate circumstances.
In calling Honeyball a hypocrite I am modifying my language so that it is not libellous! He is justifying one thing one year and the opposite the next using subjective and self-serving reasoning. In the hindsight of this year’s MN MP’s 2018 NH chase run, indeed how she performed in it, can objectively justify her participation but he could not have known for sure she would have performed that way. He is saying he did, he was backing his judgement, but now arguing against the right for equally or better qualified trainers to exercise their own similar judgements about horses in the future. What a trumped up little %&*$£*%!
Yeah i totally agree GM
The fact that lavery’s ban has been overturned with seemingly little questions asked, suggests strongly they know that it was a mistake dishing it out to begin with.
The idea that anyone did anything wrong in this race but the “professionals” havent done the same a million times is fascinating to me, i highlighted 1 example of thousands, none atall of whom got a ban… why now? Thats why ive been so against the aussie…
Were opening the door with these types of disccusions, soon its going to wide open, shortsighted to please people who couldnt care less about the sport
Weve been lucky with the nationals in the past few years, were due one were theres more fallers than normal, more injuries and these types of discussions will literally swamp racing into making drastic decisions
Soon enough theyll be trainers saying the conditions of the national should be changed (after having runners in it for years) post race lydia hislop will probably tweet that also, no one complained this strongly before the NH chase for the past million years, hypocrites the lot of them
The idea that anyone did anything wrong in this race but the “professionals” havent done the same a million times is fascinating to me,
You’re missing the point.
Of course professionals have made similar mistakes before. It’s not about whether pro’s make the same errors of judgement as amateurs… it’s about liklihood of them making those errors.Some questions:
Are amateurs or professionals generally more likely to make errors of judgement?
Do you believe a 4 mile race is generally more difficult for an amateur to judge pace than it is for proffesional jockeys? Or to put it another way..
Do you believe a 4 mile race is generally more likely to end up with extremely tired horses under amateurs or professionals?Do you believe novice chasers are generally as good as established chasers at jumping fences?
Do you believe amateurs are generally as good as professionals at getting novice chasers to jump?
Do you believe amateurs or professionals are generally the most likely to make errors of judgement in a Championship/big race?
Is it really wise to have all of those things in one race; an amateur 4m novice chase at the Cheltenham Festival?
Would anyone come up with a new race with these qualifications?
Value Is EverythingI think if the Kim Muir was run on Tuesday and NH chase on Thursday this year and last, the spotlight would be on the former.
Think of the races that were a bit grim to watch last season: the Betfair, the Haydock Grand National trial, the Eider. The overwhelming factor is the ground. It wasn’t an absolute bog on Tuesday at Cheltenham this year but it was the worst its been all week.
Do a sun dance on the Monday of Cheltenham week next year.
It is you who is missing the point, Ginger. The reality is that the NH Chase is not a new race but one of the oldest in the calendar. Its tradition cannot be divorced from the discussion by applying a test of would it be inaugurated now. What is unwise is the defensive dismembering of races that are the fabric of NH racing because of an untypical renewal, doing so is a continuation down the slippery slope.
I agree, GAG, that the ground is often the common denominator found in untypical renewals. But not always. Was the ground a contributing factor in last year’s Grand Annual (another race with a long tradition)? I think not. What is more, Ginger, is that that GA was largely contested by professional jockeys. So here was a race where the going, distance and jockeyship could not be identified as sound reasons for producing a renewal that was an unfortunate fluke. But in the BHAs mind it had to do something, thus it arbitrarily picked upon the field size (consequently reducing the spectacle).
The mindset is wrong. The BHA is hellbent on devaluing a popular product by its policy of reactionary firefighting (of imaginary conflagrations). If this path continues the entire sport will burn down (NB: see Australia!) And, as if that is not bad enough, those (on here and elsewhere) whose views concur with the BHAs are fanning the flames.
It is you who is missing the point, Ginger. The reality is that the NH Chase is not a new race but one of the oldest in the calendar. Its tradition cannot be divorced from the discussion by applying a test of would it be inaugurated now. What is unwise is the defensive dismembering of races that are the fabric of NH racing because of an untypical renewal, doing so is a continuation down the slippery slope.
Not going to answer my questions then, GM?
The NH Chase is one race, hardly “fabric”… And we’re not on about getting rid of the race anyway, just changing it.
So you agree the NH chase would not be inaugurated now. My point of would it be inaugurated now is: Should tradition trump safety – as you want it to? If we had an unsafe race in the past why should it remain unsafe in the future? Why should horses pay the price for traditition’s sake? No wonder Racing gets a bad press. If Racing had you at its helm National Hunt would already be banned.
Value Is EverythingWhat is more, Ginger, is that that GA was largely contested by professional jockeys.
But in the BHAs mind it had to do something, thus it arbitrarily picked upon the field size (consequently reducing the spectacle).
I believe the problem of the Grand Annual was the number of runners in 2m handicap chases. Runners being reduced to 20 from 24 in all 2m handicap chases at Cheltenham; which I for one am all for. For me the one thing that reduces the spectacle more than anything is the death of horses… And if reducing field sizes reduces the chance of fatalities – then fine by me. That time the slow early pace didn’t help, with 24 horses having very little room to manoever.
But did you read what I said about “liklihood”, anyway? Of course you’ll be able to find races where professional jockeys have made errors of judgement; it’s the liklihood of errors happening that counts.
Value Is EverythingI dont see your point atall ginge, to flip everything you said back
What did anyone do wrong in the NH chase? Lavery has been acquitted? So what went wrong? The fallers would have fallen with professionals on there baxk..
So what is it your referring to? The likelyhood of it happening isnt the question atall, if we took that standpoint, (a stupid one) then when a jockey turns pro, at what point can you safely say they wont do anything you said and should be “trusted” to ride “professionally”
Everytime a rarity like this happens in a race atall there would people like you (single minded activists) calling for the race to be scrapped and or conditions to be changed so that only a jockey who has had 100 rides in graded company can compete properly, slippery slope
And to quote back what you said to GM
If racing had you at its helm ginge there definitely would be no jump racing and it would be ran by PETA one horse died in the NH chase and it WAS NOT because of “tradition”
Aren’t we conflating two different issues here – the conditions of the race overall and then the ban given to Lavery?
For me, having a four-mile novices’ chase anywhere is bizarre. To have one at a tough course like Cheltenham, during the Festival (where prizemoney alone ensures a big field) and then to restrict that to amateurs is frankly bonkers.
But that has nothing to do with the similarly off-kilter initial decision to ban Mr Lavery. I.e. if you are going to have such a race, it’s a bit rich to ban amateurs for riding tired horses to places when the rewards are considerable.
Mike
And to add to Ham, once Jump racing had gone it would be the Flat’s turn. First the whip would be banished. Then the stalls. Initially it would be prohibited for several stocky men to force horses (often blind) into them against their will, resulting in numerous withdrawals per race. Nextly, because they are claustrophobic and dangerous to man and beast, stalls would be banned completely. I believe that already some of the longest distance Flat races are disappearing. Every time there was injury or fatality due to clipping heels maximum field sizes would be reduced until only single figures was allowed. Heaven help those countries that permit systematic drugging (Lasix).
If I was head of the BHA, criticism by extremist groups and press sensationalism alike would each time be met with the same fierce response defending the entire sport/industry which would include pointing out that the only issue of cruelty and rights involved is the general one of should humans have the right to decide if any animal is born and is killed or should humans allow themselves to be killed by animals so as not to offend their rights!
I’ll leave it to the public to decide whether the risk and reality of unfortunate and accidental deaths of horses in races prohibits them from viewing in person or on TV. In a society with increasing competition for folks leisure time racing’s popularity is standing up well. A race rightly or wrongly known as the most dangerous in the world, the Grand National, is and has long been the most famous and most viewed.
I am willing to accept Lavery didn’t do anything different to the rest, ham.
Sorry, I would’ve thought it was bleedin’ obvious to anyone watching the NH Chase what they did wrong.Jockeys in the NH chase went an overly strong pace. If it was just one jockey on one horse there wouldn’t be a problem.
When jockeys collectively go too strong a pace the horses are bound to finish extremely tired and even more so in a 4m race, and even more dangerous when that race is for novices (tired novices are going to make even more mistakes). They were lucky to get away with just one fatality.Honestly answer my questions yourself and you’ll see what I mean:
Are amateurs or professionals generally more likely to make errors of judgement?
Amateurs are generally far less experienced and therefore can be expected to make more errors of judgement.Do you believe a 4 mile race is generally more difficult for an amateur to judge pace than it is for proffesional jockeys?
Amateurs will generally find it more difficult to judge pace and at 4m the affects of judging pace wrongly is magnified.Or to put it another way..
Do you believe a 4 mile race is generally more likely to end up with extremely tired horses under amateurs or professionals?
When jockeys go too fast for the soft conditions in a 4 mile race then horses will finish extremely tired… and amateurs are generally more likely to make errors of judgement regarding pace than pro’s.Do you believe novice chasers are generally as good as established chasers at jumping fences?
Novice (inexperienced) Chasers are generally much more likely to make more mistakes than established chasers.Do you believe amateurs are generally as good as professionals at getting novice chasers to jump?
Amateurs are generally not as good as pro’s at putting horses in the right position to jump and also more likely to cause interference at those fences. Both of which can lead to falls/injury or death. In last week’s race we were lucky there was only one fatality.Do you believe amateurs or professionals are generally the most likely to make errors of judgement in a Championship/big race? Amateurs are generally more likely to make errors of judgement when the pressure is on.
Would anyone come up with a new race with these qualifications?
Is it really wise to have all of those things in one race? an amateur 4m novice chase at the Cheltenham Festival? LOOK at all the above questions/answers. You could not devise a race more likely to produce errors of judgement than an amateur race – run over 4m – over fences – for novices – at one of the biggest days of the season.The current NH Chase has conditions that are asking for trouble.
It’s not just one race. They’ve done it before and they’ll do it again in this race if conditions aren’t changed.Value Is EverythingA race rightly or wrongly known as the most dangerous in the world, the Grand National, is and has long been the most famous and most viewed
I’m not sure The National’s the greatest advert for your argument of just leaving everything as it is.
Mike
If you were head of the BHA, GM – I’d be thinking you’ve confirmed what the anti-brigade think – I wouldn’t be a Racing enthusiast at all. In fact, your arguements would’ve persuaded even me to be an Anti – let alone the general public.
Value Is EverythingSo in this case:
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/feb/14/colorado-jogger-recounts-ordeal-with-mountain-lion
you would allow yourself to be killed by the lion so as not to offend its rights, Ginger?
My point is, Mike, that there has been no increase in the popularity of the GN now that it is perceived safer. Thus, by definition, it was equally if not more popular when perceived more dangerous. The inherent risk and danger in NH racing is part of what has always made it attractive to millions of people. Once that is reduced below a certain point it fundamentally changes the sport and makes it less appealing to its core audience with no guarantee of attracting newcomers. We should go no further than the current safety measures in a futile effort to appease the minority extremists who will never be satisfied.
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