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Definitely Deep Impact. Also agree that the black and white horses were over-rated (hugely). Arkle two stone better than todays superstars, ha ha do me a favour.
He may not ( I agree ) have been two stones better than Kauto Star, but he was better – without any shadow of doubt.
Gambling Only Pays When You're Winning
Has to be Dubai Millenium for me.
He was a very good horse but not the wonder horse that his owner and some others make him out to be. I think his victory margin in the QE II stakes flattered him as he only had one serious opponent who didn’t run his race and the Dubai World Cup is a very good race but there are a lot harder races to win.Oh and I have to agree that the horses from the black and white days were overated.
Pete
Can’t accept that DM was overrated at all but it’s all opinions anyway. However, the horse that was meant to take over his mantle certainly appears to have been overrated judging how he finished his career…Discreet Cat.
At the moment I’m finding it hard to believe that there’s not one of Mill House, Flyingbolt and Arkle who would be inferior to Master Minded given strength of competition these days, the larger pool of horses etc
So given I can’t decide which one it is I’ll go for one that will likely annoy the older members of the racing community who generally have an orgasm when something carries more than 11-10 to win a handicap and for the moment side with Denman as the most overated.
Other than him then Rhinestone Cowboy.
Couldn’t agree more with every opinion in this post.
I also strongly disagree with those who mentioned Dubai Millenium and Curlin, those were two genuine champions. And personally, I rated Hawk Wing as a superb horse so I disagree with his inclusion too, although that’s one I can obviously understand both sides of the argument on.
A little surprised Best Mate hasn’t been mentioned more too. Maybe his star has been dimmed slightly in the public’s mind given the exploits of many of the Nicholls’ yard over the past few seasons.
Agree with North Light, not sure about Motivataor
Also overrated IMO-
Sir Percy, Shirocco, Azamour, Duke Of Marmalade, American Post, Deep Impact, Sgt Cecil and possibly the biggest of them all Curlin.
Ooh gosh – they really are personal opinions, aren’t they?
If we’re talking Shirocco, then we’re also talking Getaway. Man, I got sucked in like no other. My largest bet ever was taken in the Coronation Cup.
I couldn’t over-rate Deep Impact. A small field and no pace in the Arc meant he could not have won that race if it were run 1000 times.
He is the lifeblood of Japan since the Sunday Silence crop is starting to thin.
Discreet Cat was a horrible failure, I agree. I don’t know what Godolphin planned for him, but he failed because of it.
Again, I think we need to define "over-rated". Horses who are talked up much larger than they should be, are over-rated. Surely Sergeant Cecil, Sir Percy are not?
I’d have to say two recent Derby winners.
Motivator
North LightI could not imagine anybody rating Sir Percy to a point where one needs to rein in those sentiments by calling him over-rated. So he does not qualify on my list.
And personally, with all due respect to his achievements which were glorious in their own right, I will also mention Dylan Thomas.
Celtic Swing
But I truly love the horse, for he was, and still is the paradigm of "hype".
Don’t agree with Celtic Swing – he WAS the most dominant juvenile during his 2yr old season I’ve seen.
He then won the French Derby after 2nd in the 2000 Guineas at Newmarket – as well you know!
Wasn’t he injured after that?
He beat Bahri easily, and that horse won a group 1 comfortably at Royal Ascot.
Zip
High chaparell, exotic dancer and beef or salmon
As for the "black and white era" NH horses being overated , you must be aving a laugh , now we are in the days of "miss that one out cos the sun is in our eyes" and the amount of tracks that have had fences modified + the advancement in therapy’s and training aids, my opinion is totally opposite
Harsh to call High Chaparral over-rated. Even his trainer would rather have talked about others in the same crop. In my opinion, of course.
Seems to be confusion surrounding what "over-rated" means. For example, over rated by whom? The media? Punters? Me and You? Or by the owner? Or trainer and Jockey?
Or is it just me who is confused?
Ooh gosh – they really are personal opinions, aren’t they?
If we’re talking Shirocco, then we’re also talking Getaway. Man, I got sucked in like no other. My largest bet ever was taken in the Coronation Cup.
I couldn’t over-rate Deep Impact. A small field and no pace in the Arc meant he could not have won that race if it were run 1000 times.
He is the lifeblood of Japan since the Sunday Silence crop is starting to thin.
Discreet Cat was a horrible failure, I agree. I don’t know what Godolphin planned for him, but he failed because of it.
Again, I think we need to define "over-rated". Horses who are talked up much larger than they should be, are over-rated. Surely Sergeant Cecil, Sir Percy are not?
Went with Shirocco as his 128 rating for beating next to nothing in the jockey club stakes was just completly ridiculous, he was then forced to pull out all the stops in the coronation cup by Ouija and went on to beat hurricane run later in the season after hurricane run had been ruined by a gd-fm king george (like Montjeu, doyen and possibly galileo before him) and many had him as a cert for the arc along with deep impactosan. Those of us that jumped in on rail link at 33s in the PMU market were in disbelief. Regarding Deep Impact, he would have been suited to a stronger pace but but so too would Rail Link and Hurricane Run, and I still think he’d have been put in his place.
Regarding Sir Percy, if you had been on here in 2006 Myles you’d have seen that there was a huge difference in opinion regarding Sir Percy’s derby. Many were gutted he never went for the arc.
Regarding Curlin, I never got sucked into him after a facile beating of nothing in dubai. All season I wanted to see Henry and Ravens have a crack at him in the Breeders cup classic, they did and exposed Curlin (the greatest dirt horse since blah, blah, blah…) as a below average champion, yet he was still the horse of the year, when IMO Zarkava, Henry and Ravens Pass were clearly better horses.
Regarding Curlin, I never got sucked into him after a facile beating of nothing in dubai. All season I wanted to see Henry and Ravens have a crack at him in the Breeders cup classic, they did and exposed Curlin (the greatest dirt horse since blah, blah, blah…) as a below average champion, yet he was still the horse of the year, when IMO Zarkava, Henry and Ravens Pass were clearly better horses.
You seem to have conveniently overlooked the fact that the Breeders’ Cup Classic wasn’t run on dirt!
Nevertheless a surface he has no excuses on Smithy.
One thing which many overlooked in the run up and after was that Raven Pass, Henry and Curlin were all grandsons of Mr Prospector (probably the most successful sire of sires in the dirt world for many a season). So many people ignored this important factor in the run up and had curlin as a cert, and just had ravens and henry as another couple of european horses who would be chinned by the yank big gun. The fact that both Henry and Ravens Pass were probably the best Mr Prospectors europe has had in many a year was never factored into many peoples equations either before or after, and excuses were made regarding the pro-ride surface.
The breeders cup classic was simply a case of three big prospectors and which one was the best. Curlin clearly wasnt the best or second best, and on dirt he’d have been beaten just as easily, he was outclassed and outgunned by better horses, pure and simple.
Raven’s Pass was one of my favourite horses. But to judge Curlin on one race is surely wrong, especially as it was on a different surface. Though his form prior to that race was not great either.
I do not believe Curlin was at his best after the Dubai World Cup win.
Mark
Value Is EverythingWell this thread is all about opinions and that is my strong opinion. Curlin didnt flop in the BCC he just met a different class of opposition than he had seen before.
Well this thread is all about opinions and that is my strong opinion. Curlin didnt flop in the BCC he just met a different class of opposition than he had seen before.
Do you believe the third in the Breeders Cup, Tiago, is a better racehorse than Curlin (4th)? O.k. Tiago might have improved a bit but…..
Take a look at Tiago’s form Bulwark.
Mark
Value Is EverythingTiago was never completely useless, I actually backed him and hard spun for the previous years kentucky derby.
Tiago is different however in that Henry and Ravens beat Curlin fair and square, Curlin was a beaten horse when tiago who came with a late challenge edged in front of him at the line, and unlike tiago, curlin was tiring from trying to go with H and RP.
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