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Clearly, this question is only for those over 55yo
Hold on a second, I’m only 51 and can racing in the 1970’s! Actually I can remember a fair bit from the 60’s but my Mum would probably argue that I wasn’t a normal child!
I don’t think racing is better or worse than the 70’s. It’s different and now I go racing more often I have a different perspective anyway.
Rob
I think that it is always easy to look back with rose tinted glasses and tend to think that things were better way back then.
That said, I do honestly believe that certainly NH racing was better in the 70s.
When you add horses such as the great Night Nurse, Monksfield, Silver Buck, Golden Cygnet, to the list proposed by Cormack, it makes a mighty good list.
Perhaps I am just getting old !!The flat has changed more than jumps since the 70’s. It’s now an International Sport and for better or worse operates 12 months a year. Together with the concentration of the best horses in few hands, the domestic scene has been immeasurably weakened.
The jumps has changed much less and in my view is as strong as ever – the big change has been the decline of the north as a force. Coggy you quote a fine list but with the likes of Kauto, Denman, Big Buck’s, Hurricane Fly and Quevega doing their stuff people will remember the current era equally fondly.
The increased number of graded races has made a big difference. Arkle, Captain Christy, Pendil et al had no choice but to lump huge weights in handicaps. It has reduced the excitemnet of major handicaps like the Hennessey, Whitbread, Mackeson and Massey-Ferguson and Irish GN (excuse my using the old names)
Grey Dolphin – I agree with you totally about the decline of the North re NH racing.
Long gone are the Dickinson, Peter Easterby, Arthur Stephenson empires.
That said, lets hope Donald McCain is about to redress the balance.
Peddlers Cross, I believe will prove the last days performance all wrong, and blow a lot of the Henderson horses hype out of the water come Cheltenham.
Even if I am wrong, it should be something worth seeing.As far as quality goes, the 70’s 2 mile hurdlers were better as a bunch. Only Hurricane Fly could compete of the current crop of comparitively disappointing animals. The staying hurdlers the opposite. With Baracouda, Iris’s Gift, Limestone Lad, Inglis Drever, Mighty Man, Kasbah Bliss, Punchestowns and Big Buck’s, it’s far better nowadays. Perhaps the fact it was a neglected (poorer quality) group in the 70’s is why many don’t appreciate todays top class stayers. Some still seem to believe the 2 mile hurdlers are of better quality just because they are 2 mile hurdlers and that it is nothing to do with form.
The same thing goes for chasers. Many older racing fans seem to believe Gold Cup (staying chasers) are of better quality than 2 mile chasers. Wasn’t so long ago we had Moscow Flyer, Azertyuiop and Well Chief, three 180+ horses in the same 2 miler. Former did not get the credit he was due, as a better racehorse than Best Mate. Master Minded another cracking 2 miler at his best, though inconsistent. That division has been better than it was in the 70’s. And we’re in an exceptional era for staying chasers too. Kauto Star, Denman, Imperial Commander and Long Run all of outstanding talent.
On the whole, I’d say with the exception of 2 mile hurdlers we are if anything in just as good and in some respects better era than the 70’s when it comes to National Hunt racing.
There have been exceptional horses in the interim. Desert Orchid, Burrough Hill Lad and Istabraq, but I’d say this is the first era to rival the 70’s in amount of quality.
Value Is EverythingAs far as quality goes, the 70’s 2 mile hurdlers were better as a bunch. Only Hurricane Fly could compete of the current crop of comparitively disappointing animals. The staying hurdlers the opposite. With Baracouda, Iris’s Gift, Limestone Lad, Inglis Drever, Mighty Man, Kasbah Bliss, Punchestowns and Big Buck’s, it’s far better nowadays. Perhaps the fact it was a neglected (poorer quality) group in the 70’s is why many don’t appreciate todays top class stayers. Some still seem to believe the 2 mile hurdlers are of better quality just because they are 2 mile hurdlers and that it is nothing to do with form.
The same thing goes for chasers. Many older racing fans seem to believe Gold Cup (staying chasers) are of better quality than 2 mile chasers. Wasn’t so long ago we had Moscow Flyer, Azertyuiop and Well Chief, three 180+ horses in the same 2 miler. Former did not get the credit he was due, as a better racehorse than Best Mate. Master Minded another cracking 2 miler at his best, though inconsistent. That division has been better than it was in the 70’s. And we’re in an exceptional era for staying chasers too. Kauto Star, Denman, Imperial Commander and Long Run all of outstanding talent.
On the whole, I’d say with the exception of 2 mile hurdlers we are if anything in just as good and in some respects better era than the 70’s when it comes to National Hunt racing.
There have been exceptional horses in the interim. Desert Orchid, Burrough Hill Lad and Istabraq, but I’d say this is the first era to rival the 70’s in amount of quality.
I agree with all of this.
Also, on the flat, if you compare the 1970’s to the 2000’s there’s very little difference between the two. Outside of Brigadier Gerard and possibly Mill Reef I think you could find a horse that raced in the 00’s that could match up to the top horses from the 70’s. For example Nijinsky/Sea the Stars, Troy/Galileo, Allez France/Zarkava, Dahlia/Ouija Board, The Minstrel/High Chaparral. At a stretch you could add Brigadier Gerard/Dubai Millenium and Mill Reef/Montjeu to that list. Although those two match ups are more debatable.
I’m sure in 30 or 40 years time people will be looking back to the likes of Dubai Millenium, Montjeu, Zarkava, Sea the Stars, Frankel, Kauto Star, Denman, Moscow Flyer and Big Buck’s in the same way as people do now with the top horses from 1960’s and 70’s.
Arazi
I’m sure in 30 or 40 years time people will be looking back to the likes of Dubai Millenium, Montjeu, Zarkava, Sea the Stars, Frankel, Kauto Star, Denman, Moscow Flyer and Big Buck’s
in the same way as people do now with the top horses from 1960’s and 70’s
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They already are, judging by the thousands of threads on here (I noticed the 12k mark reached yesterday) and the Big Buck’s beast thread is just one example.
No doubt in the 70’s people were moaning about betting in decimal and saying it was better before the war, though maybe not on this forum.
– the big change has been the decline of the north as a force.
What difference does it make whether a horse is trained in the north, south, east or west?
A good horse is a good horse and, surely, it is completely irrelevant where in the country its trainer happens to reside.
I cannot understand why people are really so colloquial when it comes to one part of the country or another – at the end of the day it is the same lump of rock on the edge of the Atlantic Ocean.
There is a chap who appears in the Scottish press rooms who almost has an orgasm every time a Scottish trained horse does anything vaguely well in a race held in Scotland – even if the winner has no obvious Scottish connection he will find some spurious connection like the stable lasses third cousin twice removed was a Scot.
Wasn’t so long ago we had Moscow Flyer, Azertyuiop and Well Chief, three 180+ horses in the same 2 miler. Former did not get the credit he was due, as a better racehorse than Best Mate. Master Minded another cracking 2 miler at his best, though inconsistent. That division has been better than it was in the 70’s. And we’re in an exceptional era for staying chasers too. Kauto Star, Denman, Imperial Commander and Long Run all of outstanding talent.
On the whole, I’d say with the exception of 2 mile hurdlers we are if anything in just as good and in some respects better era than the 70’s when it comes to National Hunt racing.
There have been exceptional horses in the interim. Desert Orchid, Burrough Hill Lad and Istabraq, but I’d say this is the first era to rival the 70’s in amount of quality.
I’d be rather less circumspect than you Ginger by declaring that if the ’70s was a Golden Age for NH then this new millennium has been a Palladium-Platinum-Rhenium-Rhodium alloy of an age. The horses you mention of course but don’t overlook the standard of NH jockeyship now, which overall is so much better than the generally agriculturally-amateur back then
They’re just as good. As someone whose racing interest peaked in the 70’s, I used to think that we’d never see the likes of the stars of that era again. But it was just rose-coloured glasses.
There were certainly years in the 70’s when the top flat animals were modest and the same is true of most decades. Indeed, I had the misfortune to attend my one and only Derby in 1974, when that non-legend Snow Knight triumphed.
Who was the top Uk trained flat 3-y-o- in 1973?
Each generation (of racing fan) has its heroes and each defends the quality of those horses against the upstart newcomers of the younger generation of racing fans. The truth is, they’re probably all much of a muchness and Brigadier Gerard was no greater than Frankel; Mill Reef no better than Sea The Stars. Same applies to NH racing. (Not sure about sprinters though.)
Whatever ones age, we’re a blessed island when it comes to horse racing. We moan about prize-money, the cost of going racing, the standard of on-course catering, racecourse facilities, the standard of stewarding, the Levy, TV and Press coverage etc. But these were moans in the 70’s too.I’d be rather less circumspect than you Ginger by declaring that if the ’70s was a Golden Age for NH then this new millennium has been a Palladium-Platinum-Rhenium-Rhodium alloy of an age. The horses you mention of course but don’t overlook the standard of NH jockeyship now, which overall is so much better than the generally agriculturally-amateur back then
I was talking purely about quality of horses Drone.
Totally agree with you about jockeyship. Standard now is infinitely better than it was in the 70’s. It’s been a gradual progression which hopefully will continue. We have (imo) the best three NH jockeys there’s ever been, AP, RW and BG.Then there’s improvements in safety. Plastic rails/posts, back protectors etc.
Value Is EverythingYes, the overall standard is better today than it was in the 70s, but the likes of Lester Piggott, Pat Eddery, Willie Carson, Joe Mercer, John Francome, Jonjo O’Neill, Tommy Carberry and Tommy Carmody, could have held their own with any jockey riding today.
Gambling Only Pays When You're Winning
Not under todays rules they wouldn’t.
By that I suppose you refer to the whip rules. Well, great jockeys adjust to any situation and I’m quite sure the likes of John Francome – a fantastic jockey, who in my opinion was the equal of AP or Ruby – and still the finest jockey at presenting a horse at fence I have seen, would have had little problem in that respect – as would other great stylists like Pat Eddery and Joe Mercer.
Lester Piggott, although as cool as they came, was like Tony McCoy in one particular aspect; that is, being more perdisposed to raising his whip when the chips were down.
Gambling Only Pays When You're Winning
Yes, the overall standard is better today than it was in the 70s, but the likes of Lester Piggott, Pat Eddery, Willie Carson, Joe Mercer, John Francome, Jonjo O’Neill, Tommy Carberry and Tommy Carmody, could have held their own with any jockey riding today.
I was careful to stipulate ‘NH jockeys’ specifically as the overall improvement in their ranks has in my opinion been significantly greater than in that of the Flat ranks
Like individual horses it’s easy to pick out individual jockeys who would shine in any era. Of NH jockeys Francome most certainly and going back further Fred Winter, but its a short list; shorter than the ‘any time greats’ on the Flat : Piggott, Cauthen, Mercer, St Martin and at a push Carson who, again IMO, haven’t been equalled let alone surpassed
Was Cormack’s original "better" intended to be a question concerning ‘quality’ or one of ‘enjoyment’. If the latter then Flat was more enjoyable back then because it was all a learning curve, a youthful falling in love and there wasn’t an excess of it; NH more enjoyable now as that was a later infatuation, as mentioned previously the horses at the top have been marvellous, and there still isn’t too much of it, though there’s quite enough
Every decade has it’s Superstars. Those that remember the "Golden Age" of the seventies seem to have forgotten the following decade, which in my opinion was every bit as stellar as the 70’s or indeed the current era.
I’ll just run a few names, flat horses included Moorestyle, Shergar, Dancing Brave, Nashwan, Le Moss, Ardross, Reference Point, El Gran Senor, Northjet, Rainbow Quest and Known Fact. Stateside there was Spectacular Bid, Alysheba, John Henry and wonder filly Lady’s Secret. Among the filles in Europe we had Habibti, Miesque, Indian Skimmer, Marwell, All Along, Northern Trick, Sonic Lady, Oh So Sharp, Time Charter, Triptych and Pebbles.
Although great hurdlers were a bit thin on the ground, I would say we had some wonderful chasers namely Burrough Hill Lad, Desert Orchid, Wayward Lad, Silver Buck, Bregawn and the brilliant Badsworth Boy.
As for jockey’s, well the jock I rate as the best I’ve ever seen anywhere any era was at his peak. Steve Cauthen! But we should maybe argue that one on a different thread if this hasn’t already been discussed to death on here.
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