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Is anyone able to shed any light on the strange paradox of the Doncaster ground for the past 2 days?
Though the RP haven’t yet published it, their time-based ground looks almost certain to agree with the official description of g/f, but was it?
Apart from the well-publicised prevarication over Expresso Star’s participation in the Lincoln, and the eleventh hour decision to run, a number of those at the meeting expressed views that the ground was either “dead” or that “the rain had got onto the top 2 inches”, yet nowhere is that supported by race times.
Aside from the Gosden connections, there is also the view stated by trainers such as Brian Meehan (Manassas) : “The ground suited him – he wanted cut and he got it”. and Richard Fahey (Mister Hardy): “We thought that he was best on soft ground, but although its good to firm, there’s plenty of moisture in it”., so just what was the real going?
The most worrying thing is that it isn’t just a phenomenon curious to Doncaster; Ascot already rides differently on the straight course (Also with new drainage recently installed) to the round, and another grade 1 flat track may also be about to join them when York opens its doors for the May meeting.
Are there any clockers, or maybe Robert99, who could enlighten us on the true position?The ground at Donny was fast simple as, the times make that pretty clear. Unless there was a constant gale force tail wind or the race distances have dramatically reduced themselves there is no other explanation.
Yet another example of why its best to ignore what trainers / jockeys say.
Is anyone able to shed any light on the strange paradox of the Doncaster ground for the past 2 days?
Though the RP haven’t yet published it, their time-based ground looks almost certain to agree with the official description of g/f, but was it?
Apart from the well-publicised prevarication over Expresso Star’s participation in the Lincoln, and the eleventh hour decision to run, a number of those at the meeting expressed views that the ground was either "dead" or that "the rain had got onto the top 2 inches", yet nowhere is that supported by race times.
Aside from the Gosden connections, there is also the view stated by trainers such as Brian Meehan (Manassas) :"The ground suited him – he wanted cut and he got it".
and Richard Fahey (Mister Hardy):
"We thought that he was best on soft ground, but although its good to firm, there’s plenty of moisture in it".
, so just what was the real going?
The most worrying thing is that it isn’t just a phenomenon curious to Doncaster; Ascot already rides differently on the straight course (Also with new drainage recently installed) to the round, and another grade 1 flat track may also be about to join them when York opens its doors for the May meeting.
Are there any clockers, or maybe Robert99, who could enlighten us on the true position?September 04 Miracle surface course records all over the place similar going if i remember correctly. It was attributed to the rain giving it a springy ness to it, i think that was said at the time. Yup mister hardy certainly had me scratching my head.
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Yup mister hardy certainly had me scratching my head.
His run at Newmarket behind Ancien Regime would more than enough to see him win, 7f on good to firm and I couldn’t believe I got 14.5 in the morning!
The first three races on the straight track all appeared to be gd-fm results. Manassas is definitely a gd-fm horse.
If you look back at how well he moved on his only ever win which was his only ever try on gd-fm, he would definitely make the shortlist for the race on gd-fm, and he won it.
The Lincoln result wasnt what I would have expected but then again, zaahifd has good form on gd-fm and flipando also looked like the sort who would go well if it was good-fm. Expresso Star hadnt really appeared to me to be that unlikely to handle conditions and it was only what connections had said that made think otherwise, however he would certainly appear to have handled it. Mias Boy is the only one to go well who I wouldnt really have expected to go as well on a gd-fm surface but then if it was good I would have expected Mias Boy to have went very well indeed so perhaps the horse was just at he top of its game on the day, and could be one to take out in the hope of more cut next time.
IMO it was gd-fm.
The ground at Donny was fast simple as, the times make that pretty clear. Unless there was a constant gale force tail wind or the race distances have dramatically reduced themselves there is no other explanation.
The straight at Doncaster trends NE-SW, so considering there was a strong near-northerly wind on Saturday, there would have been at least a helping half-tail wind.
Also the soil is amongst the lightest and freest draining of any course (on a par with Musselburgh and Fakenham) so the jockey-reported dead going may have been just that in fact, but Donny ‘dead’ takes a lot less out of a horse than similar going at say York. Allied to the fact they were racing on rested, verdant turf then the apparent head-scratching discrepancy of the clock reporting GF and stick-and-hoof reporting GS is no great surprise at all really.
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Thanks for that Drone, it does seem the most rational answer.
On reflection, the course is based on very sandy soil, and wet sand does have a propensity to compact sufficiently not to slow horses down, while it’s entirely believable it would be dead enough not to inconvenience soft ground horses.
If the above is actually the case, then it should follow that extremes of going aren’t nearly as marked at Doncaster as they are at most other courses, which is certainly something to bear in mind for the future.Yup mister hardy certainly had me scratching my head.
His run at Newmarket behind Ancien Regime would more than enough to see him win, 7f on good to firm and I couldn’t believe I got 14.5 in the morning!
Hadn’t gone that far back saw sth in the form that was enough for me. Nice One!
As I was asked for an opinion, all I can add are that:
The new turf at Ascot, Doncaster, York are sports science turf – that means the chosen turf species, topsoil make up that is light and lets in air, fertilisation, mowing care and surface plus rapid and even subsoil drainage are purpose designed to get the grass to grow to perfection. That means strong root growth, and that means springiness and rapid recovery.
Older courses, in contrast, have a basic and weak grass cover, poor or blocked main drainage, with years of mix of peat, sand and seeds packed into the poached areas of poor regrowth and divots. Sports science courses will not behave anything like traditional courses, as far as going, drainage and cushion are concerned.
At Doncaster, the sandy loam subsoil under the turf remains wet in the Spring, there are also extensive lengths of clayey loams rather than sands and these make strips of going, faster or slower. For the straight course these are from the mile start to the round course junction and a stretch at the winning post. The clerk was spot on with the Good, Good-Firm descriptions for both courses.
We have also had a wet winter with some of the hardest frosts for decades – that has crumbled up the top surface soil layers to a friable state – so there is plenty of cushion, plus a quick surface drainage, plus plenty of spring from the healthy roots which have continued to grow most of the winter. The ground was not at all "firm" in the hardness sense but faster times will be recorded due both to the even and superior racing quality of and the inherent spring in the turf. The headwind on Sunday was far less strong than the cross-wind on Saturday and there was sunshine instead of showers.
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Robert99
Thanks for the detailed and illuminating response. We owe you the debt of understanding the form rather better, and of not having to guess how the York surface will perform on its re-opening.
It also suggests that speed-figure compilers will have to tread very carefully when using older standard times – at all 3 courses – until such times as proper ST’s can be established.
You truly are a mine of information.Thanks to all for the detailed replies on this thread. I have to confess that I was somewhat perplexed, wondering what the true state of the ground was, particularly on the Saturday.
Excellent reply Robert, but springy was here prior to redevelopment in September 04 according to the pundits at the time.
Excellent stuff indeed Robert
As by way of clarification it should be pointed out that, unlike Doncaster, York has not been completely re-sown/re-turfed; they have concentrated on a wholesale renewing of the drainage system alone. The back straight from 16f (Lonsdale start) to 14f (Ebor start) has had no work done on it and the rumour is this is going to be ‘returned’ to the Knavesmire common land as compensation for the land acquired to fashion the ‘new bend’.
Parts of the round course have been relaid and I’ll endeavour to ascertain exactly which in good time for the May reopening. The ‘new bend’ was indeed fresh turf, presumably the ‘sports science’ mix Robert refers to.
Incidentally the Course Enclosure on the infield has been stripped of its turf and re-landscaped.
Interesting stuff Robert. FWIW I calculate the tailwind on the straight mile on Saturday was about 6 mph agreeing with Drones assessment that it was from the North.
Excellent stuff indeed Robert
As by way of clarification it should be pointed out that, unlike Doncaster, York has not been completely re-sown/re-turfed; they have concentrated on a wholesale renewing of the drainage system alone. The back straight from 16f (Lonsdale start) to 14f (Ebor start) has had no work done on it and the rumour is this is going to be ‘returned’ to the Knavesmire common land as compensation for the land acquired to fashion the ‘new bend’.
Parts of the round course have been relaid and I’ll endeavour to ascertain exactly which in good time for the May reopening. The ‘new bend’ was indeed fresh turf, presumably the ‘sports science’ mix Robert refers to.
Incidentally the Course Enclosure on the infield has been stripped of its turf and re-landscaped.
Drone,
Yes that is correct, York have decided to achieve the same sports turf effect, but by using in-situ methods, and employing Mike Harbridge from Professional Sportsturf Design of Preston who designed York’s north bend and is experienced in racecourse track design as well as football, rugby and cricket pitches. The main contractor is J Mallinson (Ormskirk) Ltd and the irrigation contractor, Arden Lea. These contractors are experienced and specialist firms focused on sports turf construction at Premiership football stadia and Championship Golf Courses.
Preparations began in October, immediately after the final meeting of 2007, and began with divot repairs using 25 tonnes of rootzone materials and overseeding with a tonne of Advanta MM25. This was followed by surface decompaction using a vertidrain and an application of 4:12:12 autumn fertiliser.
The sward was maintained throughout the winter months using a John Deere 1600T wide area mower set at 75mm and, in February, the track was decompacted again. At the beginning of May they applied a 25:4:10 Indigrow slow release fertiliser and a combination of wetting agent and selective weed killers.During the summer of 2008, main drains and irrigation pipes were installed alongside the racing surface. Work on the widening of the south (home) bend was completed and turfed and this should be available for use in 2010. After the end of the season in 2008, further work commenced on the racing surface itself with a lateral drain inserted across the racecourse every 5 metres and sand filled slits injected parallel to the running rail every one metre, thus creating a grid effect. All these drains were inserted by the end of October 2008 and the racing surface was then protected from any construction traffic.
All this work and reseeding of the drainage work areas will vastly improve the overall turf quality and track resilience and consistency. As per Doncaster, for handicappers it will be a very different track.
York’s reported trackworks: Facts and Figures
● 24 miles of drainage and irrigation pipes, enough to reach Leeds Railway station or complete 12 circuits of the racecourse.
● 3 main drains (go around the inside of the track like a wheel), 7 carrier drains (spokes of the wheel linking main drains and culvert), 452 lateral drains (the tread on the tyre on the wheel, actually under the track).
● 7,500 days of work, equivalent to a thirty-five year project for one person.
● 308 sprinkler heads: 30% more than a typical 18 hole golf course.
● 90 metre (nearly 300 feet) deep borehole, equivalent to 3 Ebor Stands underground.
● 6,300,000 gallons of sustainable water supply available annually under the licence from the borehole, equivalent to the daily drinking water for a year for nearly 4,000 racehorses.- Total Posts 17716
Great stuff Robert, and it also explains something that has puzzled me for a while: why football pitches are so much better nowadays?
Time was, even at the very top grounds, that goal areas would be threadbare by this time of the year, but if such companies can promote virtually year round grass growth, that would explain why many pitches still look pristine throughout the winter.
Interesting ramifications for other racecourses too, as maybe they can produce surfaces which are fair to all for the future, rather than the over-watered bog, or inconsistencies from one rail to the other, we often see currently?
Roll on the day, I’d say.York’s reported trackworks: Facts and Figures
● 24 miles of drainage and irrigation pipes, enough to reach Leeds Railway station or complete 12 circuits of the racecourse.
● 3 main drains (go around the inside of the track like a wheel), 7 carrier drains (spokes of the wheel linking main drains and culvert), 452 lateral drains (the tread on the tyre on the wheel, actually under the track).
● 7,500 days of work, equivalent to a thirty-five year project for one person.
● 308 sprinkler heads: 30% more than a typical 18 hole golf course.
● 90 metre (nearly 300 feet) deep borehole, equivalent to 3 Ebor Stands underground.
● 6,300,000 gallons of sustainable water supply available annually under the licence from the borehole, equivalent to the daily drinking water for a year for nearly 4,000 racehorses.Illuminating stuff, thanks
You must be that fella I see regularly in the day-glo donkey jacket armed with clipboard and walkie-talkie overseeing the works
Although I have rather more faith in the knowledge of the contractors and your assessment of the outcome, there are a few ‘born and bred’ old lags hereabouts who insist the new racing-line drains will only result in any flooding being made worse on the out and infields as the water ‘has nowhere else to go’ due to the Knavesmire being below the level of the adjacent River Ouse. Unless subterranean pumps have been installed to move the groundwater up the contour.
It’s probably all bollocks as many of the good citizens of York enjoy a good grumble about the racecourse. I am one of the enlightened ones who regard it as a jewel in the city’s crown, without which half the restaurants and hotels would close
25:4:10 slow release NPK should result in a deep, deep green sward. Rather better than the nitrogen-only Urea and Ammonium fertilizers farmers throw on their silage grass every spring, a large proportion of which is washed straight out to pollute the water courses
Looking forward to seeing how the new track rides. Good luck to them
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