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You are preaching to the converted to me about Frankel, but you won’t catch me crabbing Sea The Stars either.
You can assume that STS was close to all out should you wish, your opinion is your own. I would disagree and would think he would have had more to give on each occasion he won should he have required it.
"Peruvian Chief":fwqvvap2 wrote:
Yep, thats right he beat very little. Sea The Stars is without doubt (2 year-old Windy City excepted) the worst timeform 140 rated horse completely and utterly over-rated.
In the Guineas he beat Delegator regularly beaten in G2/3 races, In the Derby he beat Fame And Glory a fine Cup horse but presumably not considered by connections to be good enough to be competing at G1 middle distance races. In the Eclipse he beat RVW who may well have been better at a mile and was well and truly put in place by Canford Cliffs and efforts over 10F show him about the level of Twice Over, in the Arc he beat Youmzain and Cavalryman, neither have won in 21 subsequent starts.
Sea The Stars, remember, was usually ridden out to defeat these legends of the turf. Sea The Stars a good colt, clearly the best of his generation, a "Great"? In my opinion a resounding NO!
Does "ridden out" equate to "all out"? Not in my opinion. TYhe nearest he was to being extended was the Eclipse when he ended up going away again. Never bottomed.
I’m not knocking the horse I am stating facts.
I must be perfectly blunt and say statements like "Never bottomed" "Only did what he had to" are complete cop outs.
Sea the Stars was a lovely horse but nothing will change the fact the horses he beat all came from AOB’s yard and all were running at unsuitable trips.
While he always managed to find that extra length when pressured he never met a horse who had that magical acceleration.
I just cant see how he would have coped with the likes of Zarkava coming at him all guns blazing in the previous years Arc.
I have watched the two races dozens of time and no one on this planet will ever convince me she didn’t win with much more authority than he did against the same horse.
When people use the word great they throw it about like they don’t know the difference between "Great" and very good
Great Horses do things amazing things that racing fans never forget. When you watch these examples then watch Sea the Stars then you or anyone else couldn’t possibly say he was the best they have ever seen unless they are in a world of their own and have never heard of You Tube
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k9wX2PEEZ_c
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TfluUEcN500
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kwGUKm6jzF4and the daddy of them all
I’ll sum it up for all those who cant quite grasp the difference between ‘Great horse’ from ‘All time Great Racehorse’. SeabirdII pay attention here! ‘Abernant’ ‘Great Sprinter’! ‘Tudor Minstrel’ ‘Great Miler’! Now neither of these horses won when stepped up in trip,’Abernant’ was trained to win the 2000gns and was pipped on the line,back to sprinting and what a Sprinter he was! ‘Tudor Minstrel’ won the 2000gns and followed the logical route of an ‘All Time Great’ by contesting The Derby and failed miserably,Now I’m not disputing the fact that the above 2 horses were Great at their trip but an ‘All Time Great Racehorse’ races at a variety of trips to test just how far they will go and only the best will succeed,this ultimately narrows down quite considerably the ‘Great’ from the ‘All Time Great’.The ultimate Olympian is the one who contests the Decathlon, this incredible test of mans athleticism has races varying from 100m,400m and 1500m,its a physical test very few in this world can achieve,just like Racehorses some excel at one trip,few excel at the big three,1m 11/4m and 11/2m.Now what happens when Frankel wins over a 11/4m,perhaps easily,the natural progression is to attempt a 11/2m Why? because its accepted that the best stallions in the world get the trip so Frankel goes for the King George and fails,is he still the best horse in the world? Nope!
I’ll sum it up for all those who cant quite grasp the difference between ‘Great horse’ from ‘All time Great Racehorse’. SeabirdII pay attention here! ‘Abernant’ ‘Great Sprinter’! ‘Tudor Minstrel’ ‘Great Miler’! Now neither of these horses won when stepped up in trip,’Abernant’ was trained to win the 2000gns and was pipped on the line,back to sprinting and what a Sprinter he was! ‘Tudor Minstrel’ won the 2000gns and followed the logical route of an ‘All Time Great’ by contesting The Derby and failed miserably,Now I’m not disputing the fact that the above 2 horses were Great at their trip but an ‘All Time Great Racehorse’ races at a variety of trips to test just how far they will go and only the best will succeed,this ultimately narrows down quite considerably the ‘Great’ from the ‘All Time Great’
It’s called an "all TIME Great Gord! Not an an all DISTANCE great.
ie Greats of "all TIME", meaning from the
start of "time"
. What in the words "all time" is there to mean "distance"?
If Frankel is "one of" if not "The Best" milers there’s EVER been, then he is an "ALL
TIME
GREAT"!
The difference between an "all time great" and just a "great" is there are more "greats" than "all time greats"; because to be a "great" doesn’t need as much ability. eg Not many "greats" of the 1980’s will get in to the "all time greats" list.
By all means have a section of "all time greats" entitled "multi-distance horses". Just please don’t restrict all "all time greats" to just multi-distance horses.
Value Is EverythingThe ultimate Olympian is the one who contests the Decathlon, this incredible test of mans athleticism has races varying from 100m,400m and 1500m,its a physical test very few in this world can achieve,just like Racehorses some excel at one trip,few excel at the big three,1m 11/4m and 11/2m.Now what happens when Frankel wins over a 11/4m,perhaps easily,the natural progression is to attempt a 11/2m Why? because its accepted that the best stallions in the world get the trip so Frankel goes for the King George and fails,is he still the best horse in the world? Nope!
The problem with your example is that most decathletes don’t excel at any of the individual events and would probably not even make the team on individual events.
I’ll sum it up for all those who cant quite grasp the difference between ‘Great horse’ from ‘All time Great Racehorse’. SeabirdII pay attention here! ‘Abernant’ ‘Great Sprinter’! ‘Tudor Minstrel’ ‘Great Miler’! Now neither of these horses won when stepped up in trip,’Abernant’ was trained to win the 2000gns and was pipped on the line,back to sprinting and what a Sprinter he was! ‘Tudor Minstrel’ won the 2000gns and followed the logical route of an ‘All Time Great’ by contesting The Derby and failed miserably,Now I’m not disputing the fact that the above 2 horses were Great at their trip but an ‘All Time Great Racehorse’ races at a variety of trips to test just how far they will go and only the best will succeed,this ultimately narrows down quite considerably the ‘Great’ from the ‘All Time Great’.The ultimate Olympian is the one who contests the Decathlon, this incredible test of mans athleticism has races varying from 100m,400m and 1500m,its a physical test very few in this world can achieve,just like Racehorses some excel at one trip,few excel at the big three,1m 11/4m and 11/2m.Now what happens when Frankel wins over a 11/4m,perhaps easily,the natural progression is to attempt a 11/2m Why? because its accepted that the best stallions in the world get the trip so Frankel goes for the King George and fails,is he still the best horse in the world? Nope!
Why on earth would Frankel go for the King George?
Frankel’s target is to become the highest or joint highest racehorse of all time and he’ll do that by beating the best over a mile and 10f not by going a bridge too far and possibly messing up the plan.
He will never run over 12 furlongs and he doesn’t have to as the breeders will compensate by sending mares with stamina in their pedigrees to mate with him.
As long as he stays unbeaten he will remain worth millions get that 145 and it will become zillions even if he never runs over 12f
I find it rather tawdry to be speculating as to how much the horse is worth.Price is determined by the needs of the seller(Billionaire) and the buyer.Incidentally why do we speculate that a Galileo may not get a mile and two? Until Camelot we were sure that a Montjue could not win a group one over a mile.
Incidentally this is my longest thread so far.How about that!I find it rather tawdry to be speculating as to how much the horse is worth.Price is determined by the needs of the seller(Billionaire) and the buyer.Incidentally why do we speculate that a Galileo may not get a mile and two? Until Camelot we were sure that a Montjue could not win a group one over a mile.
Incidentally this is my longest thread so far.How about that!And your least antagonistic!
"this perfect mix of poetry and destruction, this glory of rhythm, power and majesty: the undisputed champion of the world!!!"
Frankel was awesome on Saturday, probably the best miler ever.
BUT to be a great horse you have to win the GREAT races. The Derby, the King George, The Arc, the American Triple Crown.
He has nothing left to prove at a mile and should be moved up in trip right now.I know why Black Caviar is coming to Ascot .To face new challengers.But why is Frankel coming to Ascot? To entertain the Queen? To beat the same horses for the fifth time? To gain more prestige? Please enlighten me.
I know why Black Caviar is coming to Ascot .To face new challengers.But why is Frankel coming to Ascot? To entertain the Queen? To beat the same horses for the fifth time? To gain more prestige? Please enlighten me.
Actually I think the Cav is coming to Ascot because the owners like the idea of getting all toffed up and having a bit of a shindig in England.
Frankel was awesome on Saturday, probably the best miler ever.
BUT to be a great horse you have to win the GREAT races. The Derby, the King George, The Arc, the American Triple Crown.
He has nothing left to prove at a mile and should be moved up in trip right now.Sorry befair, just had to pick you up on an error you made. You said great races then put in 4 races which are restricted. That doesn’t make sense. I’ll agree that the King george & the Arc are great races.
I know why Black Caviar is coming to Ascot .To face new challengers.But why is Frankel coming to Ascot? To entertain the Queen? To beat the same horses for the fifth time? To gain more prestige? Please enlighten me.
Actually I think the Cav is coming to Ascot because the owners like the idea of getting all toffed up and having a bit of a shindig in England.
I think you’re right AIC, whaich is a shame that the owners are making about them & not the horse. She has nothing to prove in the UK. Here opponents are below par. They should be concentrating on Hong Kong & should’ve gone to Dubai.
Excellent responce Marvine.Goes to the heart of the matter.One must go away from home to be great.One never loses with a homecourt advantage.Does one? "Don’t come home ’till you have made it abroad." Sounds like my daddy.How about Sir Henry’s daddy.I wonder what he told Sir Henry.
No i think the real reason is yes it is a bit of an adventure for Black Caviar’s owners,but mainly they want to show the twits that say she hasnt beaten anything or the total knobs! who say she is on steroids! no more greater feeling then putting those knobs in their place! Some total absolute knob comments on here about her
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