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You should rephrase that last sentence. If Secretariat had been rated by Timeform who didn’t do USA rating at the time he would be miles in front of Sea Bird II let alone Frankel or Black Caviar….You probably don’t know this but he came to earth in a space space ship with Kal El and his father Bold Ruler was better known as Jor El
Secretariat is indeed up there with Frankel and Sea Bird. I believe you’ll find that Timeform have gone back and given Secretariat a "posthumous" Timeform rating of 144 HGM.
In my opinion Frankel and Sea The Stars already deserve to be rated better than The Brigadier and Secretariat. It is widely acknowledged that todays training methods and feed have improved horses. To think they’ve not improved the best horses too is in my opinion naive. If Secretariat and The Brigadier were brought by Tardis to 2012 with 1970’s training methods and feed, they’d be beaten by Frankel and Sea The Stars using today’s training methods and feed. Therefore Frankel and Sea The Stars deserve to be rated superior.
Value Is EverythingYou should rephrase that last sentence. If Secretariat had been rated by Timeform who didn’t do USA rating at the time he would be miles in front of Sea Bird II let alone Frankel or Black Caviar….You probably don’t know this but he came to earth in a space space ship with Kal El and his father Bold Ruler was better known as Jor El
Secretariat is indeed up there with Frankel and Sea Bird. I believe you’ll find that Timeform have gone back and given Secretariat a "posthumous" Timeform rating of 144 HGM.
In my opinion Frankel and Sea The Stars already deserve to be rated better than The Brigadier and Secretariat. It is widely acknowledged that todays training methods and feed have improved horses. To think they’ve not improved the best horses too is in my opinion naive. If Secretariat and The Brigadier were brought by Tardis to 2012 with 1970’s training methods and feed, they’d be beaten by Frankel and Sea The Stars using today’s training methods and feed. Therefore Frankel and Sea The Stars deserve to be rated superior.
What would the rating be Ginger if Black Caviar was trained in England? And Frankel in Australia!!!
Mike Smith rode the worse race in living memory and set her an impossible task and she still almost pulled it off.
As much as we will always be mates I have to say you don’t half talk some shyte Ginger.
When she beat Gio Ponte she was ridden to do exactly that, stick 10 horses in front of him she’d have beaten them too.
……….Zenyatta is one of the best Fillies I have ever seen and had she been trained in Europe she would have still been unbeaten to this day IMO. She was a machine of excellence and if ever a horse was ridden to do what she had to to do it was her….so you can toss the form book right out the window it is meaningless where she’s concerned
She is probably the most underrated horse ever by Timeform because she didn’t have the horses to race against the likes of Pebbles eg had.
Like I say, no Zenyatta fan can point to any form line that is anywhere near to
outstanding
.
There’s certainly merit in suggesting she should be rated with a "+", shemight
be better than able to rate her purely on
form
. But there have been hundreds of horses over the years who’ve won coming from the back to get up by a small margin. Of course connections are going to suggest they could’ve won by a
significantly wider margin
, but they
didn’t
. And Zenyatta didn’t exactly win the Breeders Cup hard held. Her form
as it stands
is not just a few pounds behind Frankel, it’s over 10 lbs
inferior
. I am just about willing to accept Zenyatta is
better than she was able to show
, but she
didn’t
have over 10 lbs up her pastern. That’s why I say she should
not
be rated in the same echelons as Secretariat, Frankel and Black Caviar.
Value Is EverythingHGM, I am a lover of quality horse racing all over the world. I don’t just limit my knowledge or interest to Australia. We, in Oz, are lucky to get the best racing from around the world televised or else it can be obtained over the internet. I urge you to look at the 2011 & 2012 Lightning Stakes, look at the times, the rating & records of the competitors…
Thank god for the last 2 posts by Ginger & jollyp, I was starting to look up for an ACME piano to fall on my head, some of the posts here are "looney tunes"….
The "Best In The World" tag should have absolutely nothing to do with how many races a horse has won. There’s an American horse (was it last year?) that’s won a sxxt load of races at a lower level. Thankfully I can’t remember his name. Basically racing in grades lower than his ability. All the number of races won tells you is the horse’s consistency and durability, nothing about quality.
Rapid Redux. Perhaps more amazing than his 24 straight wins is that those 24 were in the span of 15 months, with 19 of them in 2011. And to be fair 24 wins in a row is incredibly difficult even at the starter allowance level-there’s just so many things that can go wrong in any given race, be it traffic trouble, jockey errors, getting left at the gate, blowing the turn, grabbing a quarter, losing a shoe…obviously he’s not even a stakes quality horse, but he was celebrated by the public since he just went out every two weeks at various tracks in the mid-Atlantic and did his thing, unlike the top horses who run 5 or 6 times a year. He even got some protest votes for Horse of the Year.
Ask any Zenyatta fan to say what form line entitles her to be classed so highly and they are unable to answer.
I was a big critic of Z while she was running, but I can say that her 2008 Distaff win over Cocoa Beach, Carriage Lady, Music Note, Hystericalady, the aforementioned Ginger Punch, Santa Teresita and Bear Now was probably the finest race she ever ran. She circled six wide (
)went from last to first in the stretch too and won in a ridiculous time of 1:46.85. Her final furlong was in 11.73 seconds
. If not in the Secretariat category, she’s at least at the Whirlaway level.
What would the rating be Ginger if Black Caviar was trained in England? And Frankel in Australia!!!
Exactly the same Jollyp. Frankel 143 and Black Caviar 136 or
139
adding her sex allowance. So You Think was rated 133 when in Australia, when transferred to Mr O’Brien last year he was only able to produce a rating of 131. Timeform certainly don’t under-rate Australian form. You might even have the top rated runner in the King’s Stand Stakes this year without Black caviar.
Seems odd, all you Australians judging an English company by your own standards. Why is it so impossible for you to believe Frankel is the better horse? If Frankel were Australian and Black Caviar English do you think your opinion would differ?
You might not know this Jollyp, but the horse with the best ever Timeform rating is not English but French, Sea Bird II on 145. Secretariat USA 144. Not far behind is an Italian, Ribot on 142. The best rated mare was not English but French, Allez France 136 along with a British sprinting filly of the Eighties called Habibti. If Black Caviar’s rating is not changed before the end of this season she’ll be rated joint Best Ever mare on 136. That’s better than Arc winner Zarkava. So please don’t think Black Caviar is under-rated. That rating might go even higher if there’s anything good enough to push her.
A rating of 136 puts her just 1 lb behind our best ever sprinter Dayjur (unless you go back to the 40’s and Abernant). In a race, with the sex allowance she’d be 2 lbs better than Dayjur. She’s got at least 3 lengths in hand of any current British sprinter. I’m a big fan of Black Caviar and hope she wins both Jubilee and July Cup, she’s truly exceptional. It’s just that there’s another truly exceptional colt by the name of Frankel.
Value Is EverythingRapid Redux. Perhaps more amazing than his 24 straight wins is that those 24 were in the span of 15 months, with 19 of them in 2011. And to be fair 24 wins in a row is incredibly difficult even at the starter allowance level-there’s just so many things that can go wrong in any given race, be it traffic trouble, jockey errors, getting left at the gate, blowing the turn, grabbing a quarter, losing a shoe…obviously he’s not even a stakes quality horse, but he was celebrated by the public since he just went out every two weeks at various tracks in the mid-Atlantic and did his thing, unlike the top horses who run 5 or 6 times a year. He even got some protest votes for Horse of the Year.
Ask any Zenyatta fan to say what form line entitles her to be classed so highly and they are unable to answer.
I was a big critic of Z while she was running, but I can say that her 2008 Distaff win over Cocoa Beach, Carriage Lady, Music Note, Hystericalady, the aforementioned Ginger Punch, Santa Teresita and Bear Now was probably the finest race she ever ran. She circled six wide (
)went from last to first in the stretch too and won in a ridiculous time of 1:46.85. Her final furlong was in 11.73 seconds
. If not in the Secretariat category, she’s at least at the Whirlaway level.
Yes Rapid Redux, as you say Miss Woodford his exploits deserve credit… but not as much credit as a Secretariat.
I don’t
want
to belittle the achievements of Zenyatta either. She was a very, very good Group 1 mare. The form of the Distaff was indeed amongst her best. A 1 1/2 length defeat of Cocoa Beach is again very good, just not of the truly outstanding merit of this thread. There’s been a lot better American horses over the years that could and should be talked about in the same echelons as Frankel and Black Caviar.
Value Is Everything"The idea of a racecourse gallop was to get the adrenaline going. It was like having a very easy race and the main thing was to get him to settle," said Cecil.Sporting Life 5/15/2012.
I don’t know about you but I am tired listening to Henry peddlin this crap, the horses is now 4 for goodness sake.Then he goes on to make excuses for the gallop not beingg fast enough.Maybe he should give him over to another trainer or get stable lads who kmow how to time their quarters.Pathetic!wow – you have issues mate
"this perfect mix of poetry and destruction, this glory of rhythm, power and majesty: the undisputed champion of the world!!!"
Frankel, Black Caviar, Zenyatta, Sea The Stars. 58 races, 56 wins. Let’s give them a break no?
"this perfect mix of poetry and destruction, this glory of rhythm, power and majesty: the undisputed champion of the world!!!"
Yes joni, an exceptional lot.
Ginger, do you honestly think that an Australian 3yo winning 9 of 9, only 2 outside of his age group, would ever, ever be given a rating of 143? Personally I can’t see it.
I don’t know who the best is but I do think that it’s premature for Frankel to be given a rating of over 140, just my opinion of course.
That doesn’t mean that I don’t rate him, of course I do, as well as Zenyatta. But are they over rated??? Maybe Black Caviar is too..
Think I’ll just enjoy the fact that I can see them all race..
You should rephrase that last sentence. If Secretariat had been rated by Timeform who didn’t do USA rating at the time he would be miles in front of Sea Bird II let alone Frankel or Black Caviar….You probably don’t know this but he came to earth in a space space ship with Kal El and his father Bold Ruler was better known as Jor El
Secretariat is indeed up there with Frankel and Sea Bird. I believe you’ll find that Timeform have gone back and given Secretariat a "posthumous" Timeform rating of 144 HGM.
In my opinion Frankel and Sea The Stars already deserve to be rated better than The Brigadier and Secretariat. It is widely acknowledged that todays training methods and feed have improved horses. To think they’ve not improved the best horses too is in my opinion naive. If Secretariat and The Brigadier were brought by Tardis to 2012 with 1970’s training methods and feed, they’d be beaten by Frankel and Sea The Stars using today’s training methods and feed. Therefore Frankel and Sea The Stars deserve to be rated superior.
You cannot rate a horse outside its racing period or training methods. Would Frankel and Sea the Stars be able to run as well as the Brigadier and Mill Reef had they been subject to the training methods employed in the early 70s? No one knows but your analogy is utterly ridiculous and cannot hold a drop of water.
Yes joni, an exceptional lot.
Ginger, do you honestly think that an Australian 3yo winning 9 of 9, only 2 outside of his age group, would ever, ever be given a rating of 143? Personally I can’t see it.
Yes, it is possible, although highly unlikely Marbine. This is the first time Timeform have rated any 3 year old, at any time, anywhere, as high as 143. So how can this rating be seen as a patriotic thing? Australian 3 year old careers don’t matter as highly as in Britain, so may be aren’t trained as strongly. You probably aren’t used to seeing exceptional three year olds, so can’t quite believe Frankel is so good. Just as some British racing enthusiasts wrongly doubt Black Caviar, because these days we aren’t used to seeing such quality sprinters.
Good horses running against each other means they can often bring each other on and are able to show better ratings. ie There might be a horse running in Australian mile and middle distance races that is capable of showing a 143 or 136, but because he/she hasn’t got good horses to run against is unable to show he/she is a 143 or 136, so is unable to be rated as such. Australian sprinters as a bunch are better than any other distance group in your country. So it was always likely Australian sprinters were going to achieve the highest ratings.
However, Australia also now has the top rated stayer on Timeform ratings, Americain 129, a rating put up when finishing 4th in the Melbourne Cup. (That’s current best and not best of all time).
So according to Timeform, Australia currently has the best sprinter in the World and best stayer in the World, does that sound as if Timeform are biased against Australia?
Value Is EverythingYou cannot rate a horse outside its racing period or training methods. Would Frankel and Sea the Stars be able to run as well as the Brigadier and Mill Reef had they been subject to the training methods employed in the early 70s? No one knows but your analogy is utterly ridiculous and cannot hold a drop of water.
If you look carefully at what I said EF, I have not rated horses outside their own training methods. It is those who insist The Brigadier and Mill Reef could have run better if they had today’s training methods who’ve done that.
Value Is EverythingYou also said that Frankel and Sea the Stars deserved to be rated as superior yet you have not given any empirical evidence to support your theory. Your argument that superior training methods and feed has made them able to produce better performances is possibly true, however it does not mean that horses of today are automatically better. Your logic implies that the trainers of today are better than those in times past rather than giving sound reasons why the thoroughbred has improved.
Yes joni, an exceptional lot.
Ginger, do you honestly think that an Australian 3yo winning 9 of 9, only 2 outside of his age group, would ever, ever be given a rating of 143? Personally I can’t see it.
Yes, it is possible, although highly unlikely Marbine……….There might be a horse running in Australian mile and middle distance races that is capable of showing a 143 or 136, but because he/she hasn’t got good horses to run against is unable to show he/she is a 143 or 136, so is unable to be rated as such. Australian sprinters as a bunch are better than any other distance group in your country. So it was always likely Australian sprinters were going to achieve the highest ratings.
Before Choisir went over and spanked your lot Aussie sprinters were largely unknown in the UK, and definitely not rated as high as they are now that you’ve seen them run. What price did he start in the kings stand again? Wasn’t it 20-1 or something completely ridiculous? But Star Witness, a horse not fit to lace Choisir’s boot straps, is worthy of a 5-1 or so quote?
You’ve seen a couple other Aussies go over who weren’t just sprinters – Starcraft, Haradasun, & Elvstroem – Aussies wouldn’t rate any of those amongst our best milers or middle distance horses either…..but they all managed to be competitive over there didn’t they?
So You Think has won multiple group races in the UK.
Has the penny not dropped that maybe we might have some fairly decent gallopers tucked away who are milers or middle distance horses, and just because you are ignorant and know nothing about them, it might not mean that they aren’t world class horses too?
Seems crazy that anyone attempting to creditably discuss the topic of world class horses has never heard of the Lightning Stakes at Flemington.
The horse you’ve never heard of who ran last in that race could possibly be a good group level sprinter in the UK!
SYT was always better than your derby & arc winner Workforce. Do you think he’s the only decent mile/middle distance type horse we’ve had? More Joyous could almost be as good as Frankel but you’d all scoff and giggle because you’ve never heard of her!
More Joyous could have come to Royal Ascot to compete in the Queen Anne. Her trainer, Gai Waterhouse, was up for it but her owner, John Singleton, declined. The mare is good but definitely not in Excelebration’s class, let alone Frankel’s.
Gambling Only Pays When You're Winning
More Joyous could have come to Royal Ascot to compete in the Queen Anne. Her trainer, Gai Waterhouse, was up for it but her owner, John Singleton, declined. The mare is good but definitely not in Excelebration’s class, let alone Frankel’s.
How do you know that?
I’m not saying she’s better than Frankel, or any other horse, only saying some of you people (not saying all but its probably not far off that) are pretty clueless about racing in Australia.
Your comments would seem to indicate you’re in that ignorant majority who has no idea.
By the way the list of UK’s supposed best quality stayers in the world who have travelled and got smashed in the melb cup is LONG.
Not saying our stayers are better, far from it, but this hubris-like assumption that the ranks run far deeper in the UK for every category other than sprinters is not on the mark either in my opinion.
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