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The time set by Rip Van Winkle was nothing short of superb, he surely would have won last years renewal also, you had Major Cadeaux and Winker Watson in close proxmity last year who were behind Paco Boy who blew his chances at the start in the Lockinge.
Surely showed the time set in the Eclipse which also was freakishly fast was no fluke.
So the fact that there was absolutely no pace on last year has nothing to do with it?
Also struggling to see what on earth the time has got to do with it. Ghanaati’s time in the 1000 Guineas was exceptional in comparison to other races on the card and she’s only just beaten the Royal Hunt Cup winner home.
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Sea The Stars is undoubtedly a very good horse, the evidence that he’s a superstar isn’t nearly as clear.
For all the hype of him beating subsequent winners of the Irish Derby and the Sussex at Epsom, let’s not overlook that interspersed amongst those were the modest Masterofthehorse and Goldensword; far too close (within 2.5l) to suggest the brilliance that some accord, and judging him on his defeat of Conduit, (Who,as is now apparent, has different priorities over a different distance, later in the season) as some sort of wonderhorse may be all a little premature.
The odds are against it and, regardless of what he’s achieved so far, I’d say that he’s far more vulnerable – given that he’s campaigned much more this season – than many on here would have us believe.Before the flat season began, I was screaming from the rooftops that Rip Van Winkle was Aidan O’Brien’s best colt and would win the 2,000 Guineas.
One out of two isn’t bad.
However, even I have to concede that Sea The Stars is without question the superior colt, having defeated Rip Van Winkle on three different occasions this season already; on three different courses ( straight, left-handed and right-handed), over three different trips, and in three group ones !
Surely sufficient reason to advance the notion that Sea The Stars should be entitled to put Rip Van Winkle on his mantle-piece ( if he had such a thing).
A drop back to a mile and new tactics suited Rip Van Winkle in the Sussex Stakes – and he was impressive – but even so, I go along with CH4’sJim McGrath, who believes that it would be pointless taking on Sea The Stars for a fourth time, commenting that it would be like banging their heads against a brick wall by doing so.
The QE11 should be Rip Van Winkle’s next race, where, if judging by wednesday’s effort, is at his complete mercy.
Also; for those who believe that Mastercraftsman will defeat Sea The Stars at York (i.e. should they meet there), may I ( jokingly ) suggest that you keep on taking the tablets.
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"Also struggling to see what on earth the time has got to do with it"
Time has everything to do with it….he hacked up on the slow side of good.
He won without ever being touched with the whip.
He won without a proper pacemaker.
He beat all of Ballydoyles previous winners that ran on much quicker ground.Cant wait till STS gets a higher rating that Dubai Millenium after he wins his next 3 races on the bridle!!!!!!!!!
"Also struggling to see what on earth the time has got to do with it"
Time has everything to do with it….he hacked up on the slow side of good.
He won without ever being touched with the whip.
He won without a proper pacemaker.
He beat all of Ballydoyles previous winners that ran on much quicker ground.Cant wait till STS gets a higher rating that Dubai Millenium after he wins his next 3 races on the bridle!!!!!!!!!
Sea The Stars has beaten far better horses than Dubai Millennium ever did, on turf anyway. DM would’ve given him a lead and Sea The Stars would,ve quickened past him.
"Also struggling to see what on earth the time has got to do with it"
Time has everything to do with it….he hacked up on the slow side of good.
He won without ever being touched with the whip.
He won without a proper pacemaker.
He beat all of Ballydoyles previous winners that ran on much quicker ground.Based on that New Approach is the greatest 10f horse who’s ever raced at Newmarket, Ghanaati is the best miler who’s ever raced in the Guineas and Sir Percy is one of the best Derby winners of all-time.
Don’t make me laugh.
Thats true Zarkava but course records can be up for much debate.
For Instance New Approach never beat a Group 1 horse that day….RVW beat Ghaanti (2 Time Group 1 Wnner) and Paco Boy ( 2 time group 1 Winner) on Wednesday. Rate that form far superior to NA
Come the end of the season the combined amount of Group 1 winners STS could have beaten could be exceptional.
This years three year old colts are clearly very, very good. How that is disputable I’m struggling to figure out to be honest.
It is not you Ian that is struggling….the usual suspects on here are that have forced others away from the forum given the level of debate at times.
And for the record O’Brien reports the Rip Van Winkle has come out of the Sussex Stakes pretty sore and misses his next engagement in France and heads straight for Ascot all being well.
As a big fan of Paco Boy for many reasons I watched the race and thought the following:
He was beaten by a much better horse on the day.
He looked like he was going the best 2F out!
He gave 11lbs to the third and beat it 4 lengths.
He is what he is and was not disgraced.
That will probably be his last race in thiscountry.
Will defend his Prix Foret win
May go to Breeders, RVW the classic PB the Mile…
Nothing you don’t know , just my thoughts.
CrizzyThats true Zarkava but course records can be up for much debate.
For Instance New Approach never beat a Group 1 horse that day….RVW beat Ghaanti (2 Time Group 1 Wnner) and Paco Boy ( 2 time group 1 Winner) on Wednesday. Rate that form far superior to NA
Come the end of the season the combined amount of Group 1 winners STS could have beaten could be exceptional.
I’d happily argue that Ghanaati was extremely fortunate to win her 2 Group 1s and would not have done in most other seasons this decade and that Paco Boy’s 2 Group 1s came courtesy of running against horses that fell between being sprinters and milers and due to an incredibly bad Queen Anne. Anyway, that’s all open to debate.
My theory still stands in that Sir Percy won the Derby in an extremely quick time and in doing so beat Dylan Thomas, Sixties Icon, Papal Bull and Septimus. By your own reasoning this surely makes Sir Percy an exceptional Derby winner.
Galileo’s Irish Derby win on the same going as Fame And Glory’s Irish Derby win was 3.6 seconds faster. Does this make Galileo roughly 18 lengths superior to the latter? Kauto Star is a distance better than Arkle based on the clock. What about Giant’s Causeway? He never won his races by much because he didn’t want to. Who’s to say he wasn’t capable of running even faster than Sea The Stars if he had a good enough competitor to do.
IMO the only good thing to come out of times is to see whether the race was run at a true gallop or not.
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Sea The Star’s ‘fantastic time’ in the Eclipse doesn’t really hold water – if you consider that the 96 rated Desert Sea ran a relative time of only about 14/16lbs below it?
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Sea The Stars is undoubtedly a very good horse, the evidence that he’s a superstar isn’t nearly as clear.
For all the hype of him beating subsequent winners of the Irish Derby and the Sussex at Epsom, let’s not overlook that interspersed amongst those were the modest Masterofthehorse and Goldensword; far too close (within 2.5l) to suggest the brilliance that some accord, and judging him on his defeat of Conduit, (Who,as is now apparent, has different priorities over a different distance, later in the season) as some sort of wonderhorse may be all a little premature.
The odds are against it and, regardless of what he’s achieved so far, I’d say that he’s far more vulnerable – given that he’s campaigned much more this season – than many on here would have us believe.Totally sensible well thought out post Reet.
Nothing can change the fact we have no lines through any other horses that can be trusted that Sea The Stars is any sort of wonder horse.
I’ve seen better than him fall flat on their backsides when the season realy get going. Nashwan had a similar profile and looked what happened to him.
No one is knocking the horse but way too many aren’t allowing for improvement in other horses or for the fact the older horses might be alot better than he is.
I wouldn’t even be prepared to say Rip Van Winkle is a better horse than Henry was even if he did look like it on Saturday
If Sea the Stars does run 3 more times and beats everything in his way then you would have to sit up and say "Great Horse" because this is when the true test starts.
e.g. The fact Mastercraftsman may be inferior to Rip Van Winkle won’t come into it on race day. He not going to go down easily and it wouldn’t matter to him if he was running at York or at Hamilton, all races come the same to him. Oxx will be a worried man aboout taking him on, make no mistake about it.
Hopefully if he comes through that he will take on some older horses at a trip suited to all.
If he does run again after the Juddmonte I honestly think that will be the last time we ever see him. We could be left wondering forever how good he really is ad that’s a crying shame.
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Imo, there are a number of parallels between STS and Authorized; and look how the latter blew out in the best race he ran in.
Though he didn’t run in the Guineas, Authorized was certainly a top class 2yo; would have won the Eclipse with a better ride, and did go on to beat a field as good as any STS has met when winning the Juddmonte. Very good horse though he was, he certainly proved no world-beater in the fulness of time though.e.g. The fact Mastercraftsman may be inferior to Rip Van Winkle won’t come into it on race day. He not going to go down easily and it wouldn’t matter to him if he was running at York or at Hamilton, all races come the same to him. Oxx will be a worried man aboout taking him on, make no mistake about it.
With all due respect Fist, do you really think, in your heart of hearts, that John Oxx will lose any sleep at the prospect of Sea The Stars taking on Mastercraftsman over a mile and a quarter.
Come on, Sea The Stars will laugh at Mastercraftsman
– again !
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"Galileo’s Irish Derby win on the same going as Fame And Glory’s Irish Derby win was 3.6 seconds faster. Does this make Galileo roughly 18 lengths superior to the latter? "
How do you come up with 18l for 3 seconds….and the ground was horrendus…terrible. Racing on it shouldnt have been allowed it was deep Heavy Ground.
"My theory still stands in that Sir Percy won the Derby in an extremely quick time and in doing so beat Dylan Thomas, Sixties Icon, Papal Bull and Septimus. By your own reasoning this surely makes Sir Percy an exceptional Derby winner."
Dylan Thomas was the only horse in that 3 yr old crop that can be mentioned in the same sentence as STS…….The time was good yes but the race was ran very quick. I agree that Times are only a guide…and i do like to use the evidence in front of me but still the fact still stands that RVW ran a very Good time in a Top Group 1 race. I except that Paco Boy isnt great Group 1 horse but at the end of the day he beat him easily despite all the worries about his lameness. Also when has there been a good winner of the Queen Anne?….Last proper winner was Kalanisi
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