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Haha! Can’t believe I forgot to add the very horse who compelled me to start the list!
I could get feasibly understand the practice of gelding jumpers to protect their fatherly equipment, even though it was not an issue for any of those listed. Indeed, Korok was a triple winner of the Velka Pardubice and I can not imagine how abrasive those fences will have been in the seventies compared to the padded and forgiving obstacles faced by modern jumpers.
Well quite. I am sure the same applies to the 1930s Aintree fences, yet didn’t stop Battleship, despite him being small. I understand why they geld them (probably easier to deal with too) but look at the great sires we’d have missed if everyone had taken that approach.
Seeing as jumps bred horses invariably start their careers later than their flat counterparts, couldn’t they be given a chance to show they have a nice, even temperament before getting the chop?
It had completely escaped me that Battleship was an entire. Thanks for that. Turns out I can also add 1901 winner Grudon to the list. Can’t find any named offspring but he was at least registered in a stallion book.
What a marvellous list Bachelors Hall.
A few others I’d add are:
Aahsaylad
Landyap
Moonax
My Best Valentine
Right Win
SulukTheir stifles are a good bit lower when crossing a fence than their balls would be so I don’t think that argument really holds much water. One effect of castrating before maturity is that it delays growth plate closure, so the gelding ends up taller than he would have been if left entire, which is an advantage over fences.
An additional thought on well bred jumpers. Something I have noticed amongst the French ones is that there are a few, such as Buck’s Boum and Kotky Bleu, who are closely related to champions who had been gelded. While both of these horses were alright, neither were firmly established top-notchers before going to stud. Nevertheless, they have still produced good horses that exceed their own racecourse achievements. I wonder if this could be replicated is a champion has a brother a good few years younger? Send him over hurdles, see if he can win a juvenile, maybe place in the Finale, then off to make quarter of a million per year (five grand fee, fifty mare book) for the next couple of decades.
Cheers for those Marlingford, that is some memory!
Managed to find a few more…
Andom
Arvico
Bandmaster
Bollin William
Christophene
Cruise Missile
Early Edition
Gone Missing
Green Card
Kahtan
Marchand de Sable
My Prince
Past Glories
Russian Red
WerwolfThanks for introducing me to growth plate closure, greenasgrass. Going off a very rudimentary crash course involving a couple of internet images and a dusting off of the Janet Lorch and CMH Hayes books I keep around for such matters… Other than the vertebrae, isn’t most of what determines height set by three years? Which would mean that most store horses will be gelded at around two? Which leads me to wonder then what compels certain purchasers of ex-French jumpers who are still entire to opt for the snip – would that simply be a temperament, handling, turn-out consideration.
Furthermore, though it may cost an inch or two, allowing natural growth plate closure should lead to a more sound physiological structure that better enables the horse to take racing and jumping. Neptune Collonges raced over fences at three, wasn’t gelded until four and won the Grand National at eleven.
Apparently, in some equine disciplines, entires are preferable to geldings because they are smarter and have better muscular development. The former is an obvious asset when it comes to hurdling/chasing. The latter may be beneficial in getting an explosive jump(?) although it may mean carrying extra weight over longer distances…
Probably my biggest bugbear in the breeding side of the sport; NH stallions who have never jumped a twig…..To me it makes absolutely no sense at all, yet it’s normal practice. However, I’m likely in a minority, and the list of successful flat racing NH stallions probably shoots my arguments down.
Saying that, I think it’s the done thing, “we’ve always done it, so why change?”
Some of the blame can probably be laid at the feet of Frederico Tesio who in his ‘Breeding The Racehorse’ stated outright that “Good steeplechasers have practically never produced good steeplechasers. The obvious conclusion is that jumping ability is not inherited.”
His reasoning is that most jumpers are by flat horses, which neglects the fact that most sires never raced on the jumps. As for whether or not they pass on jumping ability, I there is evidence to the contrary through juvenile hurdlers – albeit with a small sample size.
From the list of jumping stallions, there are eight who have had ten or more individual juvenile hurdlers. These juveniles have raced 396 times in the division; falling, unseating or refusing on 388 occasions giving a clear round rate of 97.98%. This leaves 337 other sires whose juveniles have raced 24,766 times with 23,825 race ending errors. Their clear round rate is 96.20%. While the lop sided sample sizes would have some statisticians apoplectic with rage, 1.78% is not an insignificant difference given that the cluster is concentrated in the same patch.
Not much to do with the thread, just an observation that when jumps season is in flow you get a lot of Billy Big Balls acting the prat, shooting their mouth off, and generally being testosterone fuelled idiots. With the success in NH coming from geldings and increasingly mares you’d think these fellas acting the prick would learn something.
“leads me to wonder then what compels certain purchasers of ex-French jumpers who are still entire to opt for the snip – would that simply be a temperament, handling, turn-out consideration.”
Tax For Max (ex Flat horse not a jumper) was given a chance but was a bit of a prat and wasn’t good enough to win despite the prattiness, so got gelded. I hope it doesn’t put connections off the experiment.
Solo won his first race for Paul Nicholls easily (grade 2 hurdle at Kempton) and was then gelded, presumably on the basis of his disappointing run in the Triumph Hurdle. Seemed a shame to me given his stout French jumping pedigree. It didn’t seem to improve him, indeed he hasn’t won a race since.
“NH stallions who have never jumped a twig…..To me it makes absolutely no sense at all, yet it’s normal practice.”
Coolmore are marketing Mogul as a NH stallion. I doubt they had that in mind when they shelled out over 3 million for him as a yearling.
Great Marquess is another one to add to the list.
Up until around the turn of the millennium, there seems to have been a steady flow of Group/Listed class horses coming off the Flat to try their luck over hurdles. Many of them were still entires, though few went on to make a significant impact at stud.
This trend seems to have very much reduced nowadays, with the pulls of the all-weather and overseas racing both being much greater than they once were.
I’m not sure the A/W was originally intended for decent listed/Gp3 horses running on it…..but here we are. And that trend has continued, but why hasn’t something been done to address it, and the dire 2m hurdling division?
A proper incentive for listed/Gp winners on the flat to go hurdling; a bonus for winning/placing similar level over hurdles. A Royal Ascot/Cheltenham ‘double’, etc
Do/Try something. Nothing is ever tried, it’s just accepted and that’s it. I’m also a realist, and it’s unlikely to have much effect.
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