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They are very much different horses peaking at different stages in their lives.
Its very hard to say, at this stahe Harbinger has to do much much more to convince he is even in the same league as Sea The Stars but he certaintly has the chance now to go on and prove it.
However I very much doubt he will achieve what Sea The Stars did…. I think sometimes we forget just how good STS was
The Guineas, The Derby,The Eclipse,The Juddmonte, The Irish Champion, and The Arc all in his 3 year old career.. Just incredible
As mentioned they are very differnet horse but Harbinger couldnt even compete in the Voltigeur as a three year old.
I think its fairly safe to say most horse now improve from 3 to 4 so just imagine what Sea The Stars would of done to this field today…..
There is simply no way of knowing some horses improve, others don’t train on, its absolutely impossible to say.
Sea The Stars was a great horse, so versatile and consistant and has an overall record that Harbinger won’t beat.
Would Sea The Stars as a four year old have beaten Harbinger today? Impossible to say but I struggle to see how anything would’ve beaten Harbinger today.
Its not a twelve pound pull though is it, weight for age is effectively level weights.
I meant if a 3yo STS were to meet a 4yo Harbinger in today’s race. No-one will ever know how good a 4yo STS would have been.
- Total Posts 17716
Anyway enough talk.
Time to watch Kipchak win his event at Lingfield.
Just as important as this King George malarky
- Total Posts 17716
They are very much different horses peaking at different stages in their lives.
Its very hard to say, at this stahe Harbinger has to do much much more to convince he is even in the same league as Sea The Stars but he certaintly has the chance now to go on and prove it.
However I very much doubt he will achieve what Sea The Stars did…. I think sometimes we forget just how good STS was
The Guineas, The Derby,The Eclipse,The Juddmonte, The Irish Champion, and The Arc all in his 3 year old career.. Just incredible
As mentioned they are very differnet horse but Harbinger couldnt even compete in the Voltigeur as a three year old.
I think its fairly safe to say most horse now improve from 3 to 4 so just imagine what Sea The Stars would of done to this field today…..
There is simply no way of knowing some horses improve, others don’t train on, its absolutely impossible to say.
Sea The Stars was a great horse, so versatile and consistant and has an overall record that Harbinger won’t beat.
Would Sea The Stars as a four year old have beaten Harbinger today? Impossible to say but I struggle to see how anything would’ve beaten Harbinger today.
Just look at what both horses did to Age Of Aquarias when they met……
Sea The Stars on what we know would of won today
- Total Posts 17716
Anyway enough talk.
Time to watch Kipchak win his event at Lingfield.
Just as important as this King George malarky
As I said just as important
Great, great racehorse and shame on anyone claiming Harbinger is a "better" horse on the basis of just one outstanding performance.
That’s a fair enough point. Consistency and versatility are outstanding qualities for a racehorse to have. Equally, it doesn’t take much of on argument to suggest Harbinger ran to a higher rating today than Sea The Stars ever did last year. Whether that makes him ‘better’ or not, I don’t really know.
- Total Posts 17716
Great, great racehorse and shame on anyone claiming Harbinger is a "better" horse on the basis of just one outstanding performance.
That’s a fair enough point. Consistency and versatility are outstanding qualities for a racehorse to have. Equally, it doesn’t take much of on argument to suggest Harbinger ran to a higher rating today than Sea The Stars ever did last year. Whether that makes him ‘better’ or not, I don’t really know.
Mick Kinane always said STS would always just do enough.
Its not how a racehorse wins that makes it a great horse, its how many times they achieve success at the greatest level…. Workforce proved that today..
Anyway enough talk.
Time to watch Kipchak win his event at Lingfield.
Just as important as this King George malarky
As I said just as important
lol
What we fail to mention, is that had Harbinger met STSlast
year, STS was in a completely different league on level terms.
Two different horses at different peaking times. Harbinger was fav for his Derby at one time, but disappointed as a 3yo. STS would have walked all over Harbinger last year.- Total Posts 17716
Anyway enough talk.
Time to watch Kipchak win his event at Lingfield.
Just as important as this King George malarky
As I said just as important
lol
What we fail to mention, is that had Harbinger met STSlast
year, STS was in a completely different league on level terms.
Two different horses at different peaking times. Harbinger was fav for his Derby at one time, but disappointed as a 3yo. STS would have walked all over Harbinger last year.Well its very obvious Harbinger wouldnt of beaten STS last year, as I have already said they are two completely different horses.
One dissappointed at three and has vastly improved to four.
One who was at his peak at three and we will just never know if there would of been continued improvement to four, having said that there didnt need to be improvement he was that good!!!
They are very much different horses peaking at different stages in their lives.
Its very hard to say, at this stahe Harbinger has to do much much more to convince he is even in the same league as Sea The Stars but he certaintly has the chance now to go on and prove it.
However I very much doubt he will achieve what Sea The Stars did…. I think sometimes we forget just how good STS was
The Guineas, The Derby,The Eclipse,The Juddmonte, The Irish Champion, and The Arc all in his 3 year old career.. Just incredible
As mentioned they are very differnet horse but Harbinger couldnt even compete in the Voltigeur as a three year old.
I think its fairly safe to say most horse now improve from 3 to 4 so just imagine what Sea The Stars would of done to this field today…..
There is simply no way of knowing some horses improve, others don’t train on, its absolutely impossible to say.
Sea The Stars was a great horse, so versatile and consistant and has an overall record that Harbinger won’t beat.
Would Sea The Stars as a four year old have beaten Harbinger today? Impossible to say but I struggle to see how anything would’ve beaten Harbinger today.
Just look at what both horses did to Age Of Aquarias when they met……
Sea The Stars on what we know would of won today
Harbinger didn’t produce anywhere near (what we now know) is his best form when he beat Age Of Aquarius. Thats like saying Age Of Aquarius would’ve been beaten a couple of lengths by Harbinger today, I very much doubt it.
Horses don’t run to the same level every race Sea The Stars Derby form for example was well below his Eclipse form.
"Gingertipster" wrote:
Coordinated cut was a half length further behind Workforce at Epsom than he was behind Cape Blanco at the Curragh, wouldn’t draw many conclusions through him then.
On a line through the Dante Cape Blanco is a better horse than Workforce. On a line through the King George Cape Blanco is a better horse than Workforce.
Re Coordinated Cut:
Take a look at Dante and Epsom Derby form.
Do you REALLY believe Workforce ran to the SAME mark in the Dante, Derby and King George? That’s laughable.
OK, I’ll take a look at the Dante form….
….so Coordinated Cut finished 3/4 of a lengths behind Workforce and, wait for it, 4 lengths behind Cape Blanco.
No I don’t think that Ginge. He ran his best race in the Derby, but what rating he ran to in that race is anybody’s guess. It was a funny race where two of his many rivals blatantly failed to handle the track and the other lost a shoe, and the runner up is no more than a pacemaker who got lucky on the day.
Coordinated Cut was beaten 4 lengths by Cape Blanco in the Dante, 12 lengths by Workforce in the Derby.
So what you atre saying is:
3rd Rewilding did not run to form.
4th Jan Vermeer, 5th Midas Touch, 7th Coordinated Cut, 8th Midas Touch, 9th Buzzword…..
They all ran below form in the Derby.Value Is EverythingIs there really a need for using the quote facility in all these posts? Makes it rather difficult to read.
At First Sight was probably flattered by the others not going with him on the turn. But he’s also probably better than he’s shown since. Having excuses. Brought out very quick for the King Ed after a very hard race at Epsom, and then not much time between Royal Ascot and the Irish Derby.
He’s also not run a similar race to Epsom. Probably needs to make a very good even pace to show his best.Value Is EverythingCoordinated Cut was beaten 11 lengths in the Irish Derby. He could potentially not stay 12f and hence the margin of defeat being 12 and 11 lengths in both the Epsom and Irish Derby respectively. I am beginning to think that Cape Blanco does not truly stay 12f and his win in the Irish Derby was more down to his class rather than his ability to see out the trip. It is interesting to see that Aidan O’Brien will aim him at the International at York, he may go to the Champion at Leopardstown afterwards. I still think his Dante performance is top notch and hope to see him reproduce this at York, providing he gets quick ground.
JohnJ
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