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I agree with you Joncol.
Although reluctant to dismiss Workforce entirely after one performance, I really do think that it was a substandard Epsom Derby, and, in my opinion, the middle distance 3 year olds this season are a moderate bunch.
Having said that Harbinger put in a cracking performance and really is an improved, and still improving, horseI agree with you Joncol.
Although reluctant to dismiss Workforce entirely after one performance, I really do think that it was a substandard Epsom Derby, and, in my opinion, the middle distance 3 year olds this season are a moderate bunch.
Having said that Harbinger put in a cracking performance and really is an improved, and still improving, horseHad WF run to his Derby form, he still would not have beaten Harbinger today Coggy. That is the best performance I have ever seen in a Gp1, the race was over 3f out. CB has run to his Irish Derby form and been trounced.
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Harbinger was brilliant, hats off he was just brilliant.
But I do think the race also proved that Workforce is not as good as many people thought, some people even ignortanly mentioned him in the same breath as Sea The Stars, why, all because of a record time.
Regarding this record time – times means feck all in European racing and I dare say 10 or 12 previous derby winners could have broke that record had they of had At First Sight to run at…
For example Sea The Stars could beat anything put in front of him, he just didnt set a record time because he didnt have to and didnt have At First Sight to run at that day.
Overall it just proves times imo are meaningless.
Bookies and his followers based his chances on his time in the Derby rather than looking at what he beat in the Derby which without being rude were a bunch of pretty bad 3 year olds when compared to previous years.
It also proved the three olds bar Cape Blanco are NO GOOD when talking about top open aged group one races.
Hats off to the Timeform scientists and the rest of the Harbinger crew. Won well. I’m still not convinced. He’s beaten a bunch who were very average today and I’ll get him at a short price before the season is over. Tail between the legs until then though.
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Hats off to the Timeform scientists and the rest of the Harbinger crew. Won well. I’m still not convinced. He’s beaten a bunch who were very average today and I’ll get him at a short price before the season is over. Tail between the legs until then though.
Seconded. I’m eating a virtual humble pie right now. Though that phrase of Moore’s about him
("he enjoys beating up on inferior animals")
does keep coming back to me, you’d have to admire what he did today.
Got a lovely lead in from the second Stoute pacemaker, though, (can’t recall the name) who tried to take over from Confront and didn’t quite have the legs to do it. Surprised the conspiracy theorists aren’t out in force complaining "Stoute’s put us away"!
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Hats off to the Timeform scientists and the rest of the Harbinger crew. Won well. I’m still not convinced. He’s beaten a bunch who were very average today and I’ll get him at a short price before the season is over. Tail between the legs until then though.
Im not too sure there is anything around to beat him????
Fame and Glory, Sariska???? Perhaps but given how close Youmzain finished to that pair in the Coronation (3 lengths back in fourth) and what Harbinger did to him today (gave him 12 length beating) surely its hard to imagine those two giving him a race???
Obviously its hard to use Youmzain as a yardstick given his ideal racing conditions but very hard to see what horse out there can beat Harbinger????
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Having said that you could argue;
Fame and Glory gave Age of Aquarious a 10 length beating in the Derby.
Harbinger beat the same horse by 1 and half lengths at Chester. However it was almost a training exercise that day for the O Brien horse so impossible to compare really…
Obviously its hard to use Youmzain as a yardstick given his ideal racing conditions but very hard to see what horse out there can beat Harbinger????
Using Age of Aquarius as a yardstick….Profound Beauty, she was in season when beaten on unsuitable ground two runs back
Got a lovely lead in from the second Stoute pacemaker,
Indeed. Hope Ballydoyle Sky+’d that one.
Hats off to the Timeform scientists and the rest of the Harbinger crew. Won well. I’m still not convinced. He’s beaten a bunch who were very average today and I’ll get him at a short price before the season is over. Tail between the legs until then though.
That would be the same scientists that rated Workforce’s Derby performance above Sea the Stars 2009 romp!
JohnJ
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Point well made but they also got carried away with the time.
Times are meanlingless in Europe, if they were of any important we would have fractional times, we don’t.
Hats off to the Timeform scientists and the rest of the Harbinger crew. Won well. I’m still not convinced. He’s beaten a bunch who were very average today and I’ll get him at a short price before the season is over. Tail between the legs until then though.
That would be the same scientists that rated Workforce’s Derby performance above Sea the Stars 2009 romp!
JohnJ
I’m really confused by racing sometimes. Workforce won the Derby in the record time. That surely makes it the best ever performance in that race.
First is everything, second is nothing. Whoever finished behind Workforce is irrelevant."anthonycutt" wrote:
Hats off to the Timeform scientists and the rest of the Harbinger crew. Won well. I’m still not convinced. He’s beaten a bunch who were very average today and I’ll get him at a short price before the season is over. Tail between the legs until then though.
That would be the same scientists that rated Workforce’s Derby performance above Sea the Stars 2009 romp!
JohnJ
I’m really confused by racing sometimes. Workforce won the Derby in the record time. That surely makes it the best ever performance in that race.
First is everything, second is nothing. Whoever finished behind Workforce is irrelevant.You’re right Anthonycutt, it doesn’t really matter who was behind Workforce. But if a horse such as New Approach had been chasing At First Sight he would have smashed the course record to bits as well. Too much was made of Workforce’s Derby record. Alot of recent Derby winners would have broke the record that day, such was the perfection to which Seamie Heffernan rode At First Sight.
That would be the same scientists that rated Workforce’s Derby performance above Sea the Stars 2009 romp!
In fairness we need to give Workforce another go or two before drawing any firm conclusions on that one JohnJ.
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Hats off to the Timeform scientists and the rest of the Harbinger crew. Won well. I’m still not convinced. He’s beaten a bunch who were very average today and I’ll get him at a short price before the season is over. Tail between the legs until then though.
That would be the same scientists that rated Workforce’s Derby performance above Sea the Stars 2009 romp!
JohnJ
I’m really confused by racing sometimes. Workforce won the Derby in the record time. That surely makes it the best ever performance in that race.
First is everything, second is nothing. Whoever finished behind Workforce is irrelevant.You would think so but not the case.
In the Derby At First Sight went off very very very very very very fast, meaning any horse beating him would set a very quick time. Sea The Stars and previous derby winners didnt have to go that quickly to win as the horses in front of them didnt go as quick, I think its fairly safe to say if they had to they could have.
In racing record times are always dependant on the pace set in the race itself, record times rarely are a sign of a superstar but moreso a reflection of the pace set by those up front.
Most jockeys, if having the luxury of riding a really good horse, will only really ever ask their horses to win by whats required in order to preserve either their future targets or in lesser cases their handicap mark. You only do what you have to…… How many times do we hear of horses winning with "lots in the locker" or "lots in reserves"….
The is very much so a difference between racing in a very fast race and racing in a very good race as was proven today.
People are misunderstanding what Timeform said.
Workforce’s Derby was better than Sea The Stars’s Derby.
Sea The Stars improved greatly after Epsom, as did Fame And Glory. Witness the 3rd and 5th in that race. Masterofthehorse and Golden Sword beaten around 2 lengths there. Fame And Glory then beat Golden Sword (2nd) 5 lengths in the Irish Derby.Timeform said Workforce had the "POTENTIAL" to be as good as Sea The Stars. As he had put up a very good Derby performance on only his third start.
Value Is Everything
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