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Jumped like he has never seen an open ditch before. A short lived effort 3 out and then he went out like a light. That was not a strong race and none of them would be a contender for a proper prize over 2m. He still finished stone last. I wonder how many excuses connections will find this time to justify running him next time out. You shouldn’t do that to a 2m Champion Chaser in my opinion. The horse has called enough on numerous occasions.
Couldn’t agree more. Many pros were keen to hail him back to his best for that small field Chepstow win, but it was obvious he was not the same horse he’d been in that great season. All the sparkle had gone. He’s best remembered for the way he thrilled everyone in that fantastic run he had.
Jamie Moore concurs with you:-
Sire De Grugy’s jockey Jamie Moore said: “I’m disappointed but I don’t think he is as good as he was. It is as simple as that.
“We had a great couple of years and maybe he is not quite up to this level any more.
“I don’t think he will be winning a Queen Mother as he would have to improve a lot. Hopefully he can come back though.”
That was not a strong race and none of them would be a contender for a proper prize over 2m.
Vibrato Valtat could become a G1 contender. Although the horse has his quirks, he is trained by the Master. Not many gave Dodging Bullets a prayer at the start of last season (TAPK excepted
)Didn’t he make a similar mistake when falling at Newbury, I think it was just a lack of concerntration as it was quite early in the race and in any case he did very well to get back into the race after that and was still in contention two out before fitness and that mistake took its toll.
I think it is a bit premature to be writing him off at this stage although he may need several refresher courses at the schooling ground to eliminate that habit as you can’t afford to keep doing that in races.
Totally agree with LD73.
On a side note, the winner hasn’t done Vautours form any harm.
BUY THE SUN
Vibrato Valtat could become a G1 contender. Although the horse has his quirks, he is trained by the Master. Not many gave Dodging Bullets a prayer at the start of last season (TAPK excepted
)[/quote]
I’m not taking anything away from PF and I’m sure this horse will win a few races this season. You couldn’t really ask for more today, but let’s not forget that he was getting weight from a two and a half mile horse which rallied inside the final 2 furlongs. That’s why I’m still sceptical about todays’s form. But VV is still 6 and will improve a lot for the run. I’m quite sure that his next stop will be the Tingle Creek.
I suspect VV needs cut. I backed him today but won’t do again. I watched online and the quality wasn’t great, but he seems very lazy at picking up his front end, almost sloppy. He won’t win anything big at the sharp end of the season jumping like that.
Let’s face it, if Ex Ruby Light had his way there’d be no good horses left to race, they’d all be retired after disappointing.
There’s valid “excuses” for most of SDG’s poor performances.Value Is EverythingLet’s face it, if Ex Ruby Light had his way there’d be no good horses left to race, they’d all be retired after disappointing.
There’s valid “excuses” for most of SDG’s poor performances.Stupid comment. How many times would he have to fall, unseat or finish stone last in order to get his deserved retirement?
There haven’t been many CC winners in the past 25 years with such deteriorating for like SDG. Maybe Newmill’s form was about 30 lbs lower when retired after his Cheltenham win. What does he owe his owners? Nothing.
The horse looked very poor at some fences today and was totally unfit to race. FactLet’s face it, if Ex Ruby Light had his way there’d be no good horses left to race, they’d all be retired after disappointing.
There’s valid “excuses” for most of SDG’s poor performances.Stupid comment. How many times would he have to fall, unseat or finish stone last in order to get his deserved retirement?
There haven’t been many CC winners in the past 25 years with such deteriorating for like SDG. Maybe Newmill’s form was about 30 lbs lower when retired after his Cheltenham win. What does he owe his owners? Nothing.
The horse looked very poor at some fences today and was totally unfit to race. FactYour opinion is opinion Ruby, not “fact”.
SDG jumps boldly. That boldness only needs to be very slightly out to come to grief. If you watch SDG in his prime, open ditches posed a problem then too, often reaching to get to the other side. Has a horse ever lost his confidence in his jumping and then found it again?
SDG disappointed on reappearance last season at Newbury, not jumping or travelling with usual fluencey before falling in home straight. That run coming after hip injury and lameness kept him off course until February. Could he have needed his reappearance after injury and long time off?
Connections did not want to go to Cheltenham directly after such a poor display and went to Chepstow for a handicap. Second horse quite a bit below par, but even judging on form of the third Mister Grez – a stone out of the handicap – the Welsh run showed SDG capable of somewhere near his best. Gave a 35 lbs beating to a horse rated 132 without being all out to do so. 132 + 35 = 167. Can be rated 167+ on that performance and yet you want to retire him.
Small fields are difficult to rate, but time achieved that day also indicates a top class effort.SDG ran fourth in the Champion Chase – yes, below form. But that was a third race in just over a month. Is it possible Cheltenham came too soon just 18 days off since winning under a massive weight in a strongly run prep on heavy ground?
Conditions must have taken something out of him and imo not that surprising failed to recover in time. Even so managing fourth in the “Champion” and yet you want to retitre him. SDG fell at only the sixth fence at Aintree when travelling well. They hadn’t got halfway. If completing could’ve come first or last, nobody knows where he’d have finished and yet you want to retire him. How can Aintree be used as evidence of massively deteriorating form?.
In Timeform Chasers And Hurdlers 2014/15 Champion Chase winner Dodging Bullets is rated 168, the same as SDG (on his Chepstow run) and yet you want to retire him because of massively deteriorating form.
Yesterday was a handicap! Gave at least 10 lbs to all his rivals, SDG made what would for many have been a chance ending error at the fourth and yet SDG was upsides the winner going in to two out. Rightly, heavily eased once beaten. Yes below form, but the performance far better than distance beaten suggests. Before the race, Jonathon Neesom said on RUK SDG didn’t look fully fit (or words to that effect) and you yourself Ruby say he was “totally unfit to race”. SDG also came on for reappearance last season; so isn’t there a good chance he’ll do the same this time around?
And yet you want to retire him now!Unless something physical comes to light only needs to improve accuracy a little to be back to the bold jumping Champion we love. That may not be probable, but imo not worth retiring him yet.
Cue Card had a bad year and has come back. Would you have retired Kauto Star prematurely too? Wishfull Thinking has had his jumping problems, losing his form much more drastically than Sire De Grugy – and yet keeps on coming back for more.
Value Is EverythingAs long as he enjoys his racing, I’d be happy to see SDG keep going; every horse can’t be a champion. As to VV, apart from UDS, who is way ahead of the rest, the competition for the 2-mile champion, as usual, doesn’t look too strong
It’s always difficult to call for a horse’s retirement. Those who do so, tend to be those who have loved a horse dearly (In my Charlie Hall post, I had ended my original comment on Cue Card by saying I hoped he’d be retired if he failed once again to respond under pressure. I took it out of the final post, because, much as I care for the horse, it was not my place to call for retirement; but that was a fairly cold-hearted conclusion, and I would not criticise anyone else who felt strongly enough to call for retirement – it’s never anything other than subjective).
But as to the hard facts of SDG. After his Chepstow victory, I took some flak on twitter from a few people (one a very prominent ‘judge’), when I said the horse had gone. Whatever the form book said (quoted selectively by some, incidentally, as the third horse appeared to weaken the form significantly), you only had to replay his Ascot rout of the Clarence House field to see that the sparkle had gone. If you haven’t done so, watch Chepstow and Ascot back to back, and I’m certain you’ll see what I mean (I know Ginger has done so).
But, Ginger, you’re stretching form interpretation to extremes with a horse who, after an utterly dominant season, completed with 5 victories on the trot, has won once since, in a weak Chepstow 4-runner race where one of his most prominent market rivals, Far West, bled.
In two of his other four races, he failed to complete, and in a less than stellar running of the QM, he couldn’t get near the first three.
This is a horse who has gone. The argument that his jumping is responsible might well be the case. It could be that he is still feeling his hip, or something else is bothering him (I’ve even wondered at times about his eyesight). But ignore the form book, his jumping, or whatever you want to put it down to, and simply watch some of his races in that magnificent 13/14 season, and then watch those since. That old SDG no longer exists. (I don’t want to get into dead parrot territory here, but it’s at that level that the old SDG has departed).
Might he win again? Possibly. Will he ever win another QM? No, he won’t.
What a thrill it has been for his owners. He’s lit up many lives, and it must be very hard indeed to accept that it is over. When the time comes, I’m sure they’ll make the right decision.
I like your arguments Steeplechasing. There isn’t much I would like to add.
Maybe sometimes I’m a bit quick to ask for a retirement. But horses that have won at the highest level (Cheltenham Festival, Aintree, Punchestown, a King George or BF Chase) simply deserve a different treatment than “regular” ones do. You shouldn’t be running a horse and try to look for excuses, when age, injuries and other problems have caught up with it. Things won’t get any better for a soon 10-year old and an improvement isn’t on the cards either. His handicap mark is at least a stone too high considering what he has shown in his last 5 races. I know that he was 4th in the CC, but he only beat Simply Ned, Savello and Grandpa Europe that day. Otherwise there wasn’t much else in the race.
So even if he would be dropped 10-12 pounds for his next race, I still don’t know what race they might target with him. I’m quite sure that connections are still considering the Shloer and maybe the Desert Orchid Chase around Christmas.Kauto Star’s form wasn’t deteriorating in his 2nd last season. He was unlucky that the KG was rescheduled and that he had to be amateur-ridden that day. Plus in that mysterious season every Henderson trained chaser would a few extra pounds. Don’t ask me why it only happened that year. Anyway it didn’t take NJH too long to retire Riverside Theatre and Finian’s Rainbow after 3 or 4 poor runs. Let’s see how Sprinter Sacre will perform on his return as well as Simonsig.
It’s always difficult to call for a horse’s retirement. Those who do so, tend to be those who have loved a horse dearly (In my Charlie Hall post, I had ended my original comment on Cue Card by saying I hoped he’d be retired if he failed once again to respond under pressure. I took it out of the final post, because, much as I care for the horse, it was not my place to call for retirement; but that was a fairly cold-hearted conclusion, and I would not criticise anyone else who felt strongly enough to call for retirement – it’s never anything other than subjective).
But as to the hard facts of SDG. After his Chepstow victory, I took some flak on twitter from a few people (one a very prominent ‘judge’), when I said the horse had gone. Whatever the form book said (quoted selectively by some, incidentally, as the third horse appeared to weaken the form significantly), you only had to replay his Ascot rout of the Clarence House field to see that the sparkle had gone. If you haven’t done so, watch Chepstow and Ascot back to back, and I’m certain you’ll see what I mean (I know Ginger has done so).
But, Ginger, you’re stretching form interpretation to extremes with a horse who, after an utterly dominant season, completed with 5 victories on the trot, has won once since, in a weak Chepstow 4-runner race where one of his most prominent market rivals, Far West, bled.
In two of his other four races, he failed to complete, and in a less than stellar running of the QM, he couldn’t get near the first three.
This is a horse who has gone. The argument that his jumping is responsible might well be the case. It could be that he is still feeling his hip, or something else is bothering him (I’ve even wondered at times about his eyesight). But ignore the form book, his jumping, or whatever you want to put it down to, and simply watch some of his races in that magnificent 13/14 season, and then watch those since. That old SDG no longer exists. (I don’t want to get into dead parrot territory here, but it’s at that level that the old SDG has departed).
Might he win again? Possibly. Will he ever win another QM? No, he won’t.
What a thrill it has been for his owners. He’s lit up many lives, and it must be very hard indeed to accept that it is over. When the time comes, I’m sure they’ll make the right decision.
Those who call for the retirement of racehorses often have an unrealistic opinion of how good the horse was in the first place and an exaggerated opinion of how bad it’s recent form has been. Two milers around in SDG’s Glory year were not up to scratch.
As I’ve said, the Welsh form is not easy to assess, but also, when giving away a lot of weight to vastly inferior rivals it is easy for punters to underestimate the task and/or mark down the performance.
Grey Gold 7 lengths second off a mark of 152 (recieving 20 lbs). It is however, now fair to estimate Grey Gold did not run to his 152 mark. 152 + 20 + 7 = 179 and SDG is no 179 racehorse. But what of the third placed horse?…Further 2 lengths away saw Mister Grez; even allowing for the fact he was a stone out of the handicap and dismissing the claim. (ie Allowing for the 7 lb claimer being around 7 lbs worse than an established jockey)… Mister Grez won three of his four races since, with victories coming over hurdles. Now rated 132 over both hurdles and fences. Let’s say Mister Grez ran to form. Given a beating of 9 lengths by SDG in reciept of 26 lbs. So Sire De Grugy gave a 35 lbs (26 lbs + 9 lengths = 35) to a horse rated 132. Therefore 132 + 35 has SDG running to 167. Add a pound or two for ease of victory and you’d get a rating only a few pounds (if that) off Sire De Grugy’s very best. But that’s a maximum and not saying this is fact, just a possibility.
Of course it is not ideal to judge a performance by one horse alone and gives a question mark over the form; but the time (considering heavy ground) also suggests it was a top class performance. Over 21 seconds faster than other 2m races on the card. He might be a bit below form, but if it was so poor as you suggest Joe, how do you explain the time?
Of course it is also possible Mister Grez was below that 132 mark on this occasion, but by how much is likely? Timeform have Mister Grez running to within 5 lbs in 7 of his last 8 runs (he’s consistent). Even the one not within 5 lbs did not need to run to that level (winning). So it is surely still fair to say Sire De Grugy ran well, even if not at his best? How is that “stretching form interpretation to extremes”?
For you to say he’d “gone” is totally unfair and is you Joe who’s imo “stretching form interpretation to extremes”. How much below form must a horse be to be in your opinion “gone”?When a horse has three runs in just over a month; on the second occasion a fast run race run on heavy ground… Is it not possible the third run just 18 days later came too soon? Am amazed you’re dismissive of that possibility (imo probability).
So, take out Chepstow and Cheltenham and what are we left with?
A Newbury reappearance which came half way through a season after injury where he jumped poorly and fell.
An Aintree performance where he fell too soon to know what position he’d have finished if completing.
And a reappearance this term, making a mistake that would wreck the chance of most horses.But we are supposed to “ignore the form book, his jumping, or whatever you want to put it down to” is that not convenient? So we are not supposed to judge a horse by anything real, just by a feeling? I’ve watched SDG’s last 10 races more than once and saw the same motion and enthusiasm in winning at Chepstow as I did in his glory year.
These things are not about a certainty Joe, not even about probability, it’s about the possibility of Sire De Grugy getting back to his best. After an injury and fact his jumping is not as consistent as previously, I do not expect Sire De Grugy to ever return to his brilliant best. Not that his previous best will probably be good enough to win another QM. But there is a “possibility” – and I do believe he deserves the chance to try. And.. this admirable racehorse does not imo deserve to be written off as “gone”.
Value Is Everything
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