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The racecourses are not at fault here – it’s hardly a conspiracy to defraud. When there are twenty thousand in the crowd watching the racing , each and everyone of them could potentially be betting in running with an iPhone , to charge them to sit down and do it is neither here nor there. The ones who should be morally obliged here are not the racecourses or even betfair it is ATR who are putting out a very poor product and they shouldn’t need the Gaming Commission to force their hand , they should do the decent thing and carry a permanent on screen disclaimer stating the pictures are NOT LIVE.
WT,
I think the point here is that the racecourses and ATR are essentially one and the same – the racecourses are the majority owners of ATR.
If you pin the blame on ATR you can’t really exonerate the racecourses.
He who pays the piper calls the tune and tonight’s racing is a good example of how far we’ve sunk as a result:
– SIS pay the courses 4k a race on condition that at least 8 horses run in a race
– the levy tosses the courses some money on the understanding that no more than 14 runners run in a race
– the box 11 crowd pay the courses £265/£500 an evening on condition that the pics shown to their betting opponents are delayedThe result? A monotonous stream of 8-14 runner races played out in front of empty stands (but full boxes) that’s a complete turn-off to most punters.
We no longer have a meaningful sport, for the most part, in this country. What we have essentially is a betting product for hire, with virtually every aspect of the races determined by who’s bunged the organisers the most.
The racecourses are not at fault here – it’s hardly a conspiracy to defraud. When there are twenty thousand in the crowd watching the racing , each and everyone of them could potentially be betting in running with an iPhone , to charge them to sit down and do it is neither here nor there. The ones who should be morally obliged here are not the racecourses or even betfair it is ATR who are putting out a very poor product and they shouldn’t need the Gaming Commission to force their hand , they should do the decent thing and carry a permanent on screen disclaimer stating the pictures are NOT LIVE.
I don’t have the slightest objection to racegoers using mobile phones to bet. 20,000 cannot squeeze into the IR room in any case and attempting betting IR from a clunky mobile would be a real pain. The conspiracy to defraud is obvious if those in the room provided for profit by the racecourse are full and each person is willing to pay £250- £500 a race meeting, then that money and far more is regularly and reliably recoupable and from whom – those they are exploiting? To levy such high charges the racecourses must be well aware that users of the room are well able to exploit others by the course providing those facilities. Again, that is the conspiracy to defraud.
I think everyone knows the pictures from all sources are not live. What people do not know is how much in seconds each is delayed on the day. That is the missing information.
Clunky mobiles? My iPhone refreshes the exchanges screen in under a second ! I suppose it’s as much a conspiracy to defraud as a bookmaker putting FOBTs in his shop . I think I will bow out here as it’s entirely possible my views are affected by the fact that I have no sympathy whatsoever for peope who bet in running whilst watching delayed pictures . Zero sympathy and rather than help and nurture and protect these unfathomable people who place no value on their money , I find myself hoping they lose it all. There have been people betting in running from the racecourse since the vetting opportunity arose , be it by laptop on the rails ‘clunky mobile phone’ or at a trading station in a hospitality box . Why on earth would anyone bet on delayed pictures ? It seems to me it’s not even the people getting skinned who are complaining here , it’s the people who are outraged that someone is taking advantage of the fools !
From the meat of this thread the equation does seem relatively simple;
Betting in running off course + Using ATR feeds to base their opinion = Mug Punter
I have no sympathy whatsoever for peope who bet in running whilst watching delayed pictures . Zero sympathy and rather than help and nurture and protect these unfathomable people who place no value on their money , I find myself hoping they lose it all.
Largely agree. Attempts to protect fools from themselves is akin to pissing into the wind, and the steady provision of fools in all forms of betting is a prerequisite for all those seeking to turn a profit
While the cashing-in by the racecourses of this edge allowed the on-course in-running bettor could be viewed as mercenary, and the alleged collusion of ATR morally questionable is it really any different to the days when the on-course bettor had an advantage over the off-course punter via tax-free betting and the taking of a price from some generous rick merchant out in the nether regions of Tatts, not transmitted by SIS to the shops?
There were two markets then: on-course and off-course, who were the wise, who were the fools and was it fair?
As hinted at by others, this current on-course in-running trading room malarkey is surely no more than a temporary flash-in-the-pan anyway. The supply of those betting in-running off-course must dry up eventually as they either realise the hard way they’re on a hiding to nothing through the emptying of pockets, or take heed from threads such as this and sensibly decide to walk away
This currently immature n-running market will mature into a zero-sum game between those in the track trading rooms only: leave with what you arrived with less the room rental. Waste of time and money this innit? Nice while it lasted though
At tennis matches "courtside-trading" is banned.
I know of somebody that was kicked-out of The French Open and told never to return a few years ago for the offence.
Regards
You’d be surprised how little is done at other events though Matron.
A former workmate of mine used to travel the WTA circuit betting IR from a laptop at the courtside, he wasn’t the only one and there were a number of journalists doing the same – to such an extent that the WTA banned computers from the courtside area at the big events.
That said I managed to successfully bet IR on the Aegon International Tournament at Eastbourne on the Main show court and the outside courts too – I wasn’t the only one and if there was anyone checking up on this then I didn’t see them, as you’d expect liquidity is far poorer on the outside courts which aren’t covered by Eurosport etc. than on the show courts and in live horse racing markets but it can be done.
Morons, twits and fools. It depends on your viewpoint. If you believe no one should bet in running without researching thoroughly all the implications, then it’s no surprise you class them as stupid.
How many people bought Payment Protection Insurance from highly reputable organisations only to find they’d been conned (euphemism: mis-sold)?
How many of you inadvertently invested in sub-prime schemes through your pension? Do these examples portray foolishness in a customer without a full grasp of the market they are dealing in? Should we all have researched these thoroughly?
Betting exchanges are supposed to be reputable: the Gambling Commission is supposed to be reputable. ATR is supposed to be reputable: racecourses are supposed to be reputable.
Are customers entitled to expect fair treatment from reputable organisations without having to conduct hours of research?
Does anyone truly believe that people betting in running deliberately give away their cash?
There is a bloody big gap somewhere in the information stream and in the integrity of those companies profiting from IR. A mis-selling suit against the likes of Betfair might well come to pass at some point.
As Tom Waites memorably said, ‘The large print giveth and the small print taketh away.’
At tennis matches "courtside-trading" is banned.
I know of somebody that was kicked-out of The French Open and told never to return a few years ago for the offence.
Regards
You’d be surprised how little is done at other events though Matron.
A former workmate of mine used to travel the WTA circuit betting IR from a laptop at the courtside, he wasn’t the only one and there were a number of journalists doing the same – to such an extent that the WTA banned computers from the courtside area at the big events.
That said I managed to successfully bet IR on the Aegon International Tournament at Eastbourne on the Main show court and the outside courts too – I wasn’t the only one and if there was anyone checking up on this then I didn’t see them, as you’d expect liquidity is far poorer on the outside courts which aren’t covered by Eurosport etc. than on the show courts and in live horse racing markets but it can be done.
No, doubt it is probably less "policed" at the smaller tournaments; it is an easy way to make money.
I do know that the "ATP" are going to get a little more pro-active.
Regards
The answers to your question ,"should people do the necessary research before purchasing insurance or investing their pension funds" , is YES ! Absolutely yes, and it is beyond belief that you would think otherwise. Gambling has always been populated with people who cannot give their money away fast enough .
People who use betting exchanges are not customers but speculators. The exchanges make their money from the successful speculations.
While I agree that the pictures should be boldly captioned as delayed even then no one is forcing anyone to bet.If you put all the caveats in the world in someone’s path it is human nature that someone will ignore them. When it comes to gambling it is very much a case that "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing". As someone who has worked in betting shops in Newmarket I can relate a cautionary tale, one Saturday I was "tipped" 7 different horses in one race by punters in the know coming in to the shop. The only thing I could guarantee was that at least 6 of them were going to lose.
There is a bloody big gap somewhere in the information stream and in the integrity of those companies profiting from IR. A mis-selling suit against the likes of Betfair might well come to pass at some point.
As Tom Waites memorably said, ‘The large print giveth and the small print taketh away.’
Steeps, I don’t know about ATR or RUK but it is impossible to watch a race ‘live’ on Betfair without this message:
Streaming Time Delay: Although content on Betfair Live Video is advertised as ‘live’, you should be aware that Betfair pictures are typically delayed by 10-20 seconds.
being displayed directly under the screen in the same font size as the rest of the information on the page.
Also, in the rules tab on the race Exchange page, which I understand is the default tab, the following appears and this time not only in the same font but also in bold type:
Customers should be aware that:
transmissions described as "live" by some broadcasters may actually be delayed;
the extent of any such delay may vary, depending on the set-up through which they are receiving pictures or data;What more can they do to protect their chumps from themselves?
Pompete, I don’t know how many people use the streamed video on Betfair. If they believe it worth putting such a prominent warning there, perhaps they should add that all other picture sources are also subject to delay?
As for the disclaimer in their rules, it bears no comparison to the warnings flashed up should you choose odds greater than 99 yet the risk of losing cash is arguably substantially higher.
The thread, understandably, has drifted from my original point – whatever people think of those who bet in running using ATR etc, the mugs are still being mugged. Legally, perhaps,
but should the sport of racing via the courses be profiting from it?
It’s not just a moral question – racing’s share of the betting spend continues its serious decline, I doubt that newcomers would be encouraged to bet long term on racing if they found out that courses were facilitating those who were fleecing ‘novices’.
It’s a bit like contributing to your local Neighbourhood Watch scheme only to discover the organisers are selling your holiday dates to local burglars.
Steeplechasing,
I am firmly in your camp and appreciate your more elegant arguments on the wider, rather than narrow, short term issues. Perhaps younger folk do not realise UK once was a place where "your word is your bond" and we thrived on that world-wide trust, pulling ourselves up from the bankruptcy following WW2. Betting was no less honest, honourable and principled.
Our society has been so corrupted in recent times by institutions and businesses adopting the stance that if you don’t get caught out, or someone else is doing it, then it must be OK. If they get caught out, they, or their PR stooges, then lie through their teeth hoping it will all go away. If it doesn’t, they then blame it on only being a small percentage of the business / people; the weakest employee (extra training will now take place) or some freak, unimaginable computer error occurred by mere chance. Never blame themselves for 100% complicity or not speaking up.
The issue here as you have patiently tried to explain is not really a question at all of protecting mug punters. Betting health, growth and sustainability depends critically on folks believing at every stage that the sport is honest and honestly run. Racing betting share of turnover down from some 95% to 45% in a decade tells the story in widescreen, full technicolour, surround sound, and is the issue they refuse to admit to, let alone address.
The problem is the opposite of what some people are posting in that the IR scams have totally frighted off a large section of prospective punters from IR – they already don’t consider it to be viable at all. Even more have been frighted off from racing all together by the inability of BHA to convince the wider public that integrity rules absolutely, in every aspect they govern.
That racecourses are conniving to provide expensive tickets to facilities to enable betting advantage that they fully realise exploits other bettors unable to attend every meeting is almost unbelievably stupid if they want to work towards attracting more betting revenue to racing. BHA, RFC should be absolutely incandescent that all the good work they have done for racing is potentially undermined by short term greed from a major entity within racing.
Perhaps the next scam will be for the racecourses to noble every horse except one in each race and then only tell those in the IR room who pay a further £500 premium fee, 10 seconds before each race, which horse is needle free. "Well, the other courses are doing it .."
Robert , good post , the proof of the pudding is in the liquidity …Betfair has dropped a lot , the Purple one is gaining ,,,who cares you say …
In running has dropped no doubt , and yes there is an integrity issue , but punters are adaptable , the dross will attract fewer and fewer bets , making it unprofitable to stage , so it will be back to drawing board
Interesting though , the end game for betfair has now changed IMO , having established itself through British racing , it can now merrily dump it and concentrate on sports in the Usa
Can you imagine the amount of revenue it can/will generate on one football game alone …..
Racing in GB , faces an uphill battle , it has lost a shed load of customers , the major question being , can they get new ones to replace ..
Well said Robert.
This is also a health and safety and integrity issue. The racecourses now have a vested interest in letting the box 11 boys win.
We’ve seen how these courses pander to the books these days, even flooding their own track in Warwick’s case. It’s interesting that this summer there was the first example in history of an objection by the Clerk of the Scales being withdrawn at that same track! Details are sketchy but the account that I heard was that the Clerk had it ‘explained’ to him that he was allowed a certain amount of leeway and that maybe he should exercise it! That decision was no doubt cheered loudly by the short odds backers in Box 11.
One wonders what effect this will have on the number of fallers, particularly at ATR tracks. The more havoc in a race the better for your customers, so who cares about elf and safety now?
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