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Today’s RP article on pro-punters renting boxes to take advantage of live pictures when betting in-running suggests it is a growing business.
The piece says these pictures are sometimes ‘many seconds’ ahead of those available off course. Bookmaker Geoff Banks on twitter says he has known of delays of 11 seconds.
Caveat Emptor, say many but I don’t think that warnings on exchanges are sufficiently prominent or explanatory. I’m in no doubt that people are being seriously disadvantaged without knowing it and I don’t believe racecourses should be providing the facility for what is very close to being a scam.
I’m in definite agreement with you that warnings about picture delays are not nearly displayed well enough, probably because of the money the exchanges are going to make from it.
However, I don’t think you should ban people from renting boxes to bet on faster pictures. Firstly, as you mention, the people who bet against them should be aware about the delay, and exchanges should give more warning about this, but also, how would you stop them? It would be easy enough to lie about whether you are going to bet in running, so would be very difficult to stop from what i can see.
Dusty, anyone renting a box needs to be upfront about their intentions, and even if they are not, the fact that they are not behaving like ‘normal’ hospitality buyers (ordering extra badges, catering etc) should make it easy for the management to spot them.
The Gambling Commission’s position on it is this:
in-running betting does not appear to generate specific additional risks to the licensing objectives as long as betting customers are sufficiently aware of their position and the respective positions of other players and the betting operators. This includes ensuring that any information deficit is clearly understood, as are any built-in time delays to the system. We do not consider it necessary to intervene to prevent some players using technology to gain an advantage in terms of speed of information,
provided it is clear to all players that this can be done
Bold/italics are mine.
Either it is not clear to all players that delays of up to 11 seconds are possible, or those players are deliberately giving away money (or perhaps they are not of sound mind)
Whatever the answer, I think it reflects badly on racing that courses happily take payment to help facilitate the fleecing of some who bet on the sport.
I think it is wrong that racecourses are aiding pro punters profit off the naivety of other, less informed punters, my point was that the way to stop this would be to make sure that those who are, as you say, deliberately giving away money, absolutely know what they are getting in to.
If people then want to continue betting at such a significant disadvantage, then they should be allowed to, and racecourses can take some much needed income.
I just want to reiterate that the way things are at the moment, particularly with ATR advertising themselves as ‘live’ much of the time (don’t know about RUK), and exchanges like Betfair having only small warnings about delays, it is wrong that racecourses offer a way to take money from other players.
I would have thought Joe, wearing your ex-racecourse marketing hat, you would welcome the additional income stream that would be generated for the courses
I know racecourse managers I have spoken to more than welcome the guaranteed income stream resulting from the letting of the boxes.
Personally I have nothing to do with with in-running betting but each to their own.
I must confess, though, I have no sympathy for those betting in-running at home.
It is generally known there is a time lag with the pictures, even without any added artificial delays. If a punter is not aware of the time lag then more fool them for not researching in advance. If they are aware of the time lag and continue to bet then, frankly, they cannot complain when they lose to those betting on course.
I wouldn’t be criticising those who prosper from the on course advantage, indeed I admire them for using their initiative and using the situation to their advantage.
To those who claim what is happening is unfair – maybe it is – but most things in life are unfair to somebody. It is often said but to reiterate nobody is forced to bet.
Should racecourses be profiting from the fast pics players?
Should ambulance chasing lawyers be allowed to make a living? It’s not how I’d choose to turn a crust but I suppose they provide some kind of service.
Should those same ambulance chasing lawyers be allowed to make a living if it was discovered that they owned a company that went around deliberately littering the pavement with banana skins and dumping oil slicks on the roads?
I think that’s the point where any regulator worth their salt should step in.
Is this situation not comparable to the amateur stock day-traders trying to compete with the HFT boys?
it says everywhere .. what we call ‘live’ may be subject to a delay .. lets not bring the nanny state into racing, purleeze ..
At tennis matches "courtside-trading" is banned.
I know of somebody that was kicked-out of The French Open and told never to return a few years ago for the offence.
Regards
It is insider trading whatever way you look at it. Surprised the gambling commission allow it
it says everywhere .. what we call ‘live’ may be subject to a delay .. lets not bring the nanny state into racing, purleeze ..
It does not ‘say everywhere’, certainly not when i’m watching racing, and how is informing people of the risks of in-running gambling ‘nanny state’? In my eyes warnings help put everyone on a level playing field and no one feels cheated (even if they should have known better).
I’m an infrequent Betfair user these days but from what I can see, you need to click the rules tab on a horse race before you get any warning – here’s what it says when you do:
transmissions described as "live" by some broadcasters may actually be delayed;
the extent of any such delay may vary, depending on the set-up through which they are receiving pictures or data;If i want to bet anything at above 99/1, I get a prompt before I click confirm. I know speed is of the essence in running but if a similar message said "Warning – you have clicked to bet in-running: please be aware that the person laying you might be watching pictures which are up to 11 seconds ahead of those you are watching"
How many punters would hit ‘confirm’ then?
For me it is a questionable practice at best, shady at worst and not properly communicated to potential victims. If racing is looking to uphold its integrity and attract new long term punters, racecourses offering a huge advantage to professional money-takers is not something likely to help racing’s image.
Is this a story you’d be happy to see appearing in the non-racing press?
The people on course are betting real time and in the real world ! The racecourses are doing no wrong as their customers do not have an unfair advantage so much as the ATR customers are being disadvantaged. The SIS feed is far quicker and if the regulators need to step in it should be to force ATR to carry a permanent on screen message stating the pictures are not live. How this can be turned around to be a criticism of the racecourses I have no idea. There are exchange betting trading centres with SIS feeds whose inplay customers are also skinning ATR viewers …are they also in the wrong ?
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The Gambling Commission’s position on it is this:
in-running betting does not appear to generate specific additional risks to the licensing objectives as long as betting customers are sufficiently aware of their position and the respective positions of other players and the betting operators. This includes ensuring that any information deficit is clearly understood, as are any built-in time delays to the system."I can just imagine if the USA regulators caught wind of this the cops would be surrounding the joint, sirens wailing and armed to the teeth.
Unfortunately, now Betfair are registered in Gibraltar they only have to pay lip-service to UK gambling laws and the feeble UK GC.You would think that BHA would see this "conspiracy to defraud" as harming the "integrity" image of racing just as seriously as alleged race fixing, inside information and owners laying their horses.
As far as the UK GC views are concerned the situation is that most are aware of delays but few are on top of the ever changing magnitudes of the time delays. The quicker they think they have to react to make an IR betting decision then the more they believe what they are seeing with their eyes as truth, and become sucked in to betting on a historical event as being reality.
They are clearly not "sufficiently aware" and do not "fully understand the information deficit". Plenty will not know the counter-party is in a closed off and darkened room supplied by the racecourse ("respective positions of other players "). So morally, Betfair are certainly not complying with the UK GC view on IR propriety.
Fortunately, most are now totally scared off of attempting IR with the dice loaded against them, which is a pity as IR could be a major part of increased betting appeal to newcomers and would help boost both Betfair’s and racing’s income. It has been reduced to fast picture shark versus shark with little money until the last 3 furlongs on the flat. It is costing them a lot in fees just to tread water. The worst of UK plc in miniature.
Once the digital switchover is complete and more folks view in HD then the delay discrepancies will only get worse.
IMHO Betfair have a moral duty as beneficiaries of IR to police the racing broadcasters to achieve a common minimum delay standard; to help fund the replacement of outdated slow re-broadcast equipment and to ensure that all broadcasts have a time stamp and supplied software that can constantly flag the real delay between the broadcast and real time.
Joe , as much as I agree with you , Paul is right , the courses are rightly trying to maximise income , tough times abound , and as questionable as it seems money talks ..but it wont last
Anyone who bets in running with ATR specifically is indeed a moronic twit , in time victims will run out , until then its dont play in running at all unless you have SIS OR ARE on course yourself is clearly the message
Ricky
Any off course betting is done without complete knowledge. There is very little difference between betting in-running off course and going into a bookies and placing a bet.
Anyone who thinks they are gaining an advantage by betting "in-running" only succeeds in having less time to lose their money.
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