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Jonjo is forever shrined in that day in 86. He cant go higher. A far superior pilot than a trainer. Capable enough but just doesnt do it for me. I must admit he did a FINE training performance with that lovely horse Exorric dancer – a superstar of a horse for me and only for Kauto was around he would have been lauded high and low. Certainly piqued (Not peaked) my interest and Grasshoppers too. Lovely horse. But – jonjo? Nah – Id send me horses to lots and lots of trainers before Jonjo. Hobbs, Henderson, Meade, Rothwell, Nolan, Colm Murphy etc etc All these boys are ahead of Jonjo. JP has done well for himself since the days of schleppin’ around Leopardstown lookin’ for a light after Jack of Trumps fell but he cud do better than Jonjo very easily.
Philip Rothwell?
You’re joking right? He couldn’t train ivy up a wall.
Enda Bolger should be given the keys to Jackdaws asap. He usually gets all Jonjo’s cast-offs so he might as well have a crack with them as younger horses!
JP, as Wally says, should concentrate more on pointing graduates and stop throwing money at every half-decent bumper winner. Handpick a few young up and coming trainers – Tom Mullins, Gordon Elliot, Colm Murphy, Paul Nolan, Paul Flynn and give them the opportunities. I would also suggest employing a separate stable jockey for all of his runners in Ireland. Its often the case that the first time AP sits on one of JP’s Irish raiders is when its on its way to the start at Cheltenham.
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JP has a 10% strike rate in Ireland and an 21% strike rate with Jonjo…….stop talking shyte.
If that was aimed at me Fist I was suggesting how he could improve his Irish strike-rate
"Edna Bolger should be given the keys to jackdaws"
appart from training horses to run up and down banks and jump burnt out cars what are his big training feats ?Just from a quick look through this years festival results jonjo still managed to bag roughly 140k in prize money, and last season if i recall he did even better.
Give jonjo the tools, he can do the job.
Enda vs. Jonjo is no choice IMO – Jonjo wins one or two big races from 100+ horses whilst Enda is consistently at the top of his profession (training banks horses and hunter chasers) from 20-30 horses.
For the record you can chalk up two Cheltenham Festival successes for Enda in 2010 already and we’re only in December.
No doubt Jonjo will manage to get the Rock rated 100 and win 5 handicap chases with him sometime in 2011 and be hailed a genius by his TRF fans.
The results at Jackdaws are a joke year in year out.
But you cant blame Jonjo all the time as the Yard has had problems through the years. Even saying that for the amount of JPS invested the return as been very poor
You don’t know how much money he’s won gambling those horses though Wallace. Mcmanus is clearly no fool and I would imagine his operations generally pay for themselves or he wouldn’t bother, surely?
Jonjo can not be described as a top trainer like Nicholls, King, Henderson, Hobbs, Mullins or Meade. However, he is not bad either. Has a good strike rate at Cheltenham and would’ve had a better over all record but for desperate hard luck. Deaths of Exotic Dancer and Wicheta Lineman, early retirement of Iris’s Gift etc. It is easy to compare Enda Bolger’s strike rate, but x-country chases are far less competitive than park courses. Jonjo does have a poor return if followed blind, though that may be partly because bookies are afraid of McManus money.
Think JP is loyal and can’t see him getting rid of Jonjo, seems to be a friendship there too. Possibly a case for spreading the load a bit, no more than that.
Value Is Everything- Total Posts 17716
The man just keeps firing winners out year after year…..has finished 2nd in money only to Paul Nichols 126/126……. Would have won at least 1 King George and a Gold Cup with Exotic Dancer if Kauto Star didn’t exist but that aside still won over 3/4 of a million pounds with the horse. He has Cheltenham winners every year..any idiot can look at a chart and say so and so is better but when it comes to the top of the tree my lovelies its all down to who has the best horses not who is the best trainer.
I think it’s more a case of the punter’s who follow him blind having a bad record Ginge not him. "Bad record" just doesn’t compute with the name Jonjo O’neill.
At least not after yesterday’s handicaop Hurdle at Ffos Las it doesn’t
Wonder if Ted backed it JP McManus is not in the NH game to even try and make even. He is in it for the love of it.
He has said on many occasions that 300k for a horse is well worth it if he has a festival winner and thats really all he cares about. I wouldnt think he has many of the big bets he used too as in his old age he has become as wise as a wise man
.One question though…….that novice hurdler he bought of John Oxx with the rarest breeding in the game….that cost well over the guts of 250,000 to get him and he is useless dire pathetic being tailed off in novices with Jonjo. JP has himself to blame he clearly does not have the craft of John Magnier when picking a Horse. Its no surprise that most of JPS Better horses were Magniers in bumpers. Bellvano and qunatitiveasing are 2 this year that springs to mind…..I think he should bring is friend to the NH sales.
The man just keeps firing winners out year after year…..has finished 2nd in money only to Paul Nichols 126/126……. Would have won at least 1 King George and a Gold Cup with Exotic Dancer if Kauto Star didn’t exist but that aside still won over 3/4 of a million pounds with the horse. He has Cheltenham winners every year..any idiot can look at a chart and say so and so is better but when it comes to the top of the tree my lovelies its all down to who has the best horses not who is the best trainer.
I think it’s more a case of the punter’s who follow him blind having a bad record Ginge not him. "Bad record" just doesn’t compute with the name Jonjo O’neill.
At least not after yesterday’s handicaop Hurdle at Ffos Las it doesn’t
Wonder if Ted backed it Fist,
Jonjo did very well with Exotic Dancer, but as you yourself say we should not judge trainers on their best horses. Good horses make good trainers (or look as though they are good trainers). Prize money may also be a poor guide, as one good horse winning a few valuable races can make all the difference. Was the year he finished second to Nicholls the one when Exotic Dancer won the Paddy Power and three other valuable races? We should look at several statistics to form an over all comparison.
Comparing Jonjo’s “following blind” column shows a big gap. With -£410 for the last three full seasons combined. That compares to Nicholls -£234, Henderson -£72, King -£131, P Hobbs -258, V. Williams +£17 (largely due to a certain 100/1 winner), Meade -£283, WP Mullins -£60.
With Strike rates of: Jonjo 15%, Nicholls 25%, Henderson 23%, A King 19%, P Hobbs 17%, V Williams 16%, Meade 16%, WP Mullins 22%.There are some other statistics including median rating of horse. Which Jonjo comes bottom of all the trainers mentioned.
I agree that comparing one figure does not give a full picture of how good a trainer is. But looking at several statistics it seems Jonjo is not in the top bracket.
Considering the quality of animal Jonjo receives, I myself would not put him in the top 10 trainers in Britain. I’d put trainers like J Goldie, W Goldsworthy, C Longsdon, E Lavelle, T Vaughn, S West, all above Jonjo if I was placing a horse with a trainer. That can only be an opinion and he’s still pretty good.
Value Is Everything- Total Posts 17716
Wake up and smell the roses Ginge ffs.The quality of animals he recieves?
…I bet you a dime to a dollar you wouldn’t have a clue of the names or breeding of half the horses he trains. You assume because many come via JP McManus’s million they must be good….nothing could be further from the truth, many are lucky to run in a race let alone win one.Goldsworthy? Lavelle? Gimme a break!
I take it you mean Sarah West? She’s clueless, she reckons Golan Way is a Champion Hurdle you know? I think you can get around 9999/1 about him with Paddy Power……Value Bet Ginge…..you back him and you can buy us all a horse when he hacks up.
I must admit she has really proven herself as a top 10 trainer. She had about 8 winners last year 4 of them were Golan Way and has trained 1 winner over fences in 5 years. At the risk of being rude don’t talk shyte man.
I’ll call Jonjo in the morning and tell him he better move out
Ginge your a number man do me a favour and factor out all the horses Jonjo has that couldn’t win a Southwell Seller…..the man has 200 runners a year that wouldn’t be allowed a box at PN’s yard and those figures mean nothing……of course he’s going to have a crap level stake profit but who in their right mind would back a quarter of them let alone them all?
Wish you would not abuse other members Fist. If anyone disagrees with you please keep calm.
Sorry for any confusion, but please read what I wrote carefully. Sheena (not Sara) West is up there in the list if I were "placing a horse" (probably a poorish quality animal) with a trainer. If I had a horse one thing I’d want is value for money. Don’t know how much Jonjo charges, but expect it is a lot more than Sheena. Obviously I would not put a chaser with her, though before this season she’d only 10 runners in chases in three years. She’s done exceptionally well with the stuff she’s given. Including Golan Way, who is part owned by a friend of mine. Median rating of just 75 yet has a 12% strike rate compared to 103 for Jonjo and 15% SR. Also, as she is under-estimated by a lot of punters (including yourself) her horses usually go off at a value price (+ £52). Which is another way for owners to show a profit from their horses. Unlike Jonjo, who (obviously from -£410 statistic) is to a certain degree over-estimated by punters. Not his fault, just the way it is. If Sheena was the well known one and Jonjo not so, it may well be the other way around. I just feel Jonjo’s reputation is greater than his ability.
I would put most of the trainers I mentioned ahead of Jonjo on ability, including Emma Lavelle.
Value Is EverythingGingertipster, I doubt jonjo and jp give much thought to what number appears in the £1 profit/loss column in the racing post, betting shop mugs are’nt paying the bills.
Not many trainers would have got Lingo to win the greatwood hurdle in the way he did – with the added pressure of knowing the gaffer was having 100k eachway on it.Fist, you’re ranting.
Jonjo is a decent trainer who does well with his good horses and has brought through some decent young jockeys (Farrelly and Mclernon) as well. He trains festival winners etc etc I wouldn’t say he’s top 5 but he’s probably just sneaking into the top 10 in the UK.
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Wish you would not abuse other members Fist. If anyone disagrees with you please keep calm.
Sorry for any confusion, but please read what I wrote carefully. Sheena (not Sara) West is up there in the list if I were "placing a horse" (probably a poorish quality animal) with a trainer. If I had a horse one thing I’d want is value for money. Don’t know how much Jonjo charges, but expect it is a lot more than Sheena. Obviously I would not put a chaser with her, though before this season she’d only 10 runners in chases in three years. She’s done exceptionally well with the stuff she’s given. Including Golan Way, who is part owned by a friend of mine. Median rating of just 75 yet has a 12% strike rate compared to 103 for Jonjo and 15% SR. Also, as she is under-estimated by a lot of punters (including yourself) her horses usually go off at a value price (+ £52). Which is another way for owners to show a profit from their horses. Unlike Jonjo, who (obviously from -£410 statistic) is to a certain degree over-estimated by punters. Not his fault, just the way it is. If Sheena was the well known one and Jonjo not so, it may well be the other way around. I just feel Jonjo’s reputation is greater than his ability.
I would put most of the trainers I mentioned ahead of Jonjo on ability, including Emma Lavelle.
I am sorry Mr Righteous
I did read what you wrote carefully…you said you rated those trainers higher than Jonjo with no mention of fees or quality of horse until now.
I also find it very strange that in 2600 posts you failed to mention your admiration for Miss West until now.
Going by what your saying the best trainer in the world must be C St V Fox (whoever that is) who has a 100% strike rate.
I could dig out plenty trainers with a better strike rate than Paul Nichols but it doesn’t make them better trainers. e.g I don’t see Barney Curley in your list and he’s got one of the best strike rates in the country around 40%. Is he therefore a better trainer than PN?
The truth of the matter is there are only so many good horses going around and the law of averages tells you the more you have in training the worse your strike rate is likely to be. When you have a yard as big as Jonjo’s with hundreds of boxes to fill you also can’t afford to be anywhere near as selective as someone with 30 boxes.
Trying to comparing one to the other by strictly painting by numbers is the type of nonsense that goes on in all forums. In the real world the people involved know there’s a lot more to training than that and the only figures that really matter are the top line and the bottom line in their annual returns.
If you don’t have painting by numbers let me know and I’ll send you one for Xmas
appart from training horses to run up and down banks and jump burnt out cars what are his big training feats ?
Wonder if Ted backed it 
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