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The trouble is that I don’t think that there is a response that will not lead to many more deaths. I feel your frustration, my darling wife feels the way you do. Not sure there is an easy answer.
Colin.. I hope you are not taking your line from the guardian which has a long tradition of employing Russian agents (at least one was convicted) and of course had Seamus Milne, corbyns chief advisor, as come to editor for many years. Milne was employed by Putin and worshipped the Soviet Union as well as being an open admirer or Stalin
But I am winding up a bit. Tisdall etc are excellent on this
Ukraine are stopping more deaths across the west. They are fighting on the civilised worlds behalf. Russian media has ramped up that this is a war “on the west” and explicit about the Baltic states being t(e next target as well as Poland which a majority of Russians, according to admittedly dubious polls, wish to see invaded
If Ukraine rolls or had rolled over it is absolutely certain he would take the war further and test nato
“If Ukraine rolls or had rolled over it is absolutely certain he would take the war further and test nato”
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No Clive, it is not “absolutely certain”, it is your opinion.
Chances of Putin invading a NATO country is small.
It would bring about WWIII which even Putin does not want.
Had Ukraine rolled over and – just as importantly – had NATO and European response been seen by Putin as weak; other non-NATO countries may have been at risk… but not NATO.When we hear anything from any government we should ask ourselves what is in their interests for us to believe? Does not mean we should disbelieve what they say, just be aware it may not be true.
I am politically from the centre-right – never read the Guardian or any other paper come to that – and yet agree with Colin. It is difficult to find “a response that will not lead to many more deaths”. NATO can not use its troops in this war or do something that appears to join the war like enforcing no fly zones.
Am sure NATO is already using its technical capabilities to give Ukraine an idea of what is and what’s likely to happen and where. NATO also giving all the weapons it can without actually joining the war themselves – pushing things to the limit of what NATO can get away with…
That’s my opinion.
So what else do you suggest the World does?
Value Is EverythingAs when this forum was chortling away when saying the same before the invasion of Ukraine. “They won’t do it” “Putin is clever” etc etc
And if you don’t wish to take in the Daily Mail, perhaps I can link the direct links from pundits on Kremlin TV going a lot further than the above?
When they produce polls stating that the vast majority of Russians back an invasion of Poland, what do you think the reasoning behind that is?
Why do you think Putin doesn’t want WW111 anyway? They have explicitly declared that the intention was a “war on the west”.
They will push and push this to the limits
NATO is definitely NOT giving all the weapons they can. Germany for one is holding back and even the remaining states have not supplied aircraft or much in the way of tanks
The objective must be to ramp up supply to the Ukrainians.
the Ukrainians have constantly been patronised on this thread by some who laughably got every call wrong but perhaps for once we should listen to them?
Putin has said Russia will be at war with any country planes are supplied from.
So if planes went from any NATO country to Ukraine then Russia would declare war on that country… And as declaring war on any NATO country is deemed as declaring war on all NATO countries we’d have WWIII.As far as I’ve seen, nobody on this thread has patronised Ukrainians, possibly some have under-estimated them but that’s a totally different thing. They’ve got some things wrong but we all get stuff wrong from time to time.
tbh Most of the stuff I’ve said was likely has happened, although that does not mean I’ll get anything else right.
Some said about nuclear; that was always extremely unlikely.
Value Is EverythingJust hope you are right in your last sentence Ginge.
From where I am it’s still early days and anything can happen, things may happen that have not even been thought of yet which may steer the war this way or that.
For who we are dealing with and defeat of any kind is not an option, it really is unknown what we may be looking at in the days, weeks, months ahead.
I thought you said he didn’t want ww111? So let’s supply aircraft and face him down
And what about tanks or are we going to kowtow to every demand he makes?
And yes I think you need to refer back to posts sneering at the support given to Ukrainians because it “encourages them”. With fairness to one poster who put his hands up and said that was crap
And why do you believe nuclear is off the table?
tbh I think those accounts of chemical weapons are no more than 50 – 50 to be correct too, GSP. Heard before that people often get what seem at first to be a chemical reaction from some conventional weapons.
Also we don’t know what chemicals were stored at the Steel plant, if a conventional bomb disturbed chemicals it could be a reaction to that rather than chemical warfare too.
So it is too early to come to any firm conclusions yet.
Value Is EverythingNobody on here was “sneering”.
Nobody wants a World War, Clive.
Nobody is “kowtow”ing, just being a bit cautious because although every death is a tragedy for the family involved, the numbers to die in Ukraine could be insignificant compared to a WWIII.
If there is WWIII then nuclear becomes more likely than would be the case if kept to Russia Vs Ukraine.However even as it is: Nuclear isn’t entirely “off the table” just extremely unlikely to be used… And even then if they are used (BIG IF) most likely to come by mistake. Luhansk and Dombass border Russia, so any nuclear attack runs the risk of contaminating Russia too.
Value Is EverythingWrong. It’s 50 50 that we will all be reduced to a matchbox of ashes by this time next year. That’s why I’m advising against ante post bets on the gold cup
Judging by all those 70s itv seven threads Most on tbe forum have not long to live anyway and even if they do, they won’t know much about it anyway, so I don’t know if by people are that bothered
“That’s why I’m advising against ante post bets on the gold cup”
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If you’re dead then it isn’t as if you’ve saved any money not betting.
Value Is EverythingYou do realise that if Native Trail wins the guineas he will be the winner for the next 500000 years
Haha. You have been watching too much Nat Geo too lol.
I think there may be some troof in it too tbf. Sounds like a cool story. Only bit I dont get is if our ancient civilisations were so advanced , what happened to all the metal they had to have produced? Did it just melt?
Maybe someone should decipher those scrolls and hand them to biden and putin. Maybe the penny will drop?
In the meantime , geo politician down the years, need to be rounded up and locked up.Funny how Ukraine blows up Russias most presitigious warship a day after the US pledged Ukraine $800million worth of military aid. I read reports saying the russian warship should easily have been able to defend itself against missile attacks, so either that Russian warship was horrendously under-armoured, or the west has come up with some incredible new missile system that is beyond the detection capabilities of this Russian warship.
US pledge appeared as though it was a matter of “going to” supply rather than “are already”. So they wouldn’t have had time to get a new missile system there before this strike. Other Russian ships have reportedly now retreated further away from the Ukrainian coast, which suggests that’s where the missile/s strike came from. Titanic-like, seems as though there was a complacency amongst the Russian navy, believing their ship unsinkable.
Value Is EverythingWell that’s one less warship to worry about, why it sank doesn’t matter as much as
it’s gone and is a poke in the eye for Mr Putin. The fire onboard is feasible, but
it would almost certainly take an act of sabotage. That would be an additional worry
for Putin if a Ukranian/s had somehow infiltrated his forces, or someone turned.Both will stick to their story, propeganda is the name of the game, but regardless,
it will be seen as weakness on the part of Putin.
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