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Also, I dont think, as some have implied, that KS looked beat after only a few fences – he only came unstuck once Denman injected the decisive pace going out on the final circuit.
Which is only what you’d expect when a speed horse like Denman meets a plodder like Kauto?
Reet, I think what the gold cup confirmed is that Denman is a million miles from being slow – Most of us got carried away with the fact that Kauto has won two tingle creeks. Taking Master Minded out of the equation I wouldn;t be surprised if Denman could be most of the 2 mile dvision as well. So when you try to give a horse like that a 6 length head start in tacky ground over a distance which is probably the limit of his stamina you have to say Kauto just wasn;t good enough..
Great post.
Take away Master Minded. Vor Por Ustedes is around a 163 horse (my ratings).
Kauto is a 180 horse. Kauto could run ten pounds below his best over 2m and still beat Vor Por seven lengths (approx). He’s just simply a much better horse as is Denman. Denman over 2m would certainly give Voy Por a race.
Is that why Nicanor outpaced him over 2m 5f over hurdles, doubt very much that Denman would compete at two miles.
JohnJ.
You can’t use one race over different obstacles as a guide surely? After all didn’t Denman once beat Penzance over 2m2?
Denman was always going to improve for going over fences.
Also, I dont think, as some have implied, that KS looked beat after only a few fences – he only came unstuck once Denman injected the decisive pace going out on the final circuit.
Which is only what you’d expect when a speed horse like Denman meets a plodder like Kauto?
Reet, I think what the gold cup confirmed is that Denman is a million miles from being slow – Most of us got carried away with the fact that Kauto has won two tingle creeks. Taking Master Minded out of the equation I wouldn;t be surprised if Denman could be most of the 2 mile dvision as well. So when you try to give a horse like that a 6 length head start in tacky ground over a distance which is probably the limit of his stamina you have to say Kauto just wasn;t good enough..
Great post.
Take away Master Minded. Vor Por Ustedes is around a 163 horse (my ratings).
Kauto is a 180 horse. Kauto could run ten pounds below his best over 2m and still beat Vor Por seven lengths (approx). He’s just simply a much better horse as is Denman. Denman over 2m would certainly give Voy Por a race.
Is that why Nicanor outpaced him over 2m 5f over hurdles, doubt very much that Denman would compete at two miles.
JohnJ.
You can’t use one race over different obstacles as a guide surely? After all didn’t Denman once beat Penzance over 2m2?
Denman was always going to improve for going over fences.
He was completely done by Nicanor for toe in the Sun Alliance hurdle that year.
JohnJ.
Also, I dont think, as some have implied, that KS looked beat after only a few fences – he only came unstuck once Denman injected the decisive pace going out on the final circuit.
Which is only what you’d expect when a speed horse like Denman meets a plodder like Kauto?
Reet, I think what the gold cup confirmed is that Denman is a million miles from being slow – Most of us got carried away with the fact that Kauto has won two tingle creeks. Taking Master Minded out of the equation I wouldn;t be surprised if Denman could be most of the 2 mile dvision as well. So when you try to give a horse like that a 6 length head start in tacky ground over a distance which is probably the limit of his stamina you have to say Kauto just wasn;t good enough..
Great post.
Take away Master Minded. Vor Por Ustedes is around a 163 horse (my ratings).
Kauto is a 180 horse. Kauto could run ten pounds below his best over 2m and still beat Vor Por seven lengths (approx). He’s just simply a much better horse as is Denman. Denman over 2m would certainly give Voy Por a race.
Is that why Nicanor outpaced him over 2m 5f over hurdles, doubt very much that Denman would compete at two miles.
JohnJ.
You can’t use one race over different obstacles as a guide surely? After all didn’t Denman once beat Penzance over 2m2?
Denman was always going to improve for going over fences.
He was completely done by Nicanor for toe in the Sun Alliance hurdle that year.
JohnJ.
No argument but that was a hurdle race and Denman is a better and more mature horse how.
Denman over two miles? he can gallop no doubting that but he would get murdered over two miles agains a good horse………….massive difference……top 2 milers go a lot faster than Denman. Simply not the same…………Similar Flying Bolt who was a class act over 2 miles in his young days but when he tried to take them on in the Champion Hurdle he got made to look ordinary by Salmon Spray. about 1 in a thousand can actually a just Like Kauto Night Nurse Desert Orchid but Denman never! he’s a brute of a horse suited to saying races and was and never will be a 2 mile horse he’d get slaughtered.
Denman over two miles? he can gallop no doubting that but he would get murdered over two miles agains a good horse………….massive difference……top 2 milers go a lot faster than Denman. Simply not the same…………Similar Flying Bolt who was a class act over 2 miles in his young days but when he tried to take them on in the Champion Hurdle he got made to look ordinary by Salmon Spray. about 1 in a thousand can actually a just Like Kauto Night Nurse Desert Orchid but Denman never! he’s a brute of a horse suited to saying races and was and never will be a 2 mile horse he’d get slaughtered.
Even though he has 16 pounds in hand of anything but Master Minded? He’d get trounced by Master Minded sure, but anything else? Maybe Tidal Bay be interesting to see how he progreses. The ground would also be a big factor.
Fist Of Fury wrote:
Does my head in some people on here saying others are making excuses for the horse.it’s called race reading and they should try it some time….It will all come out in the washing and next time Denman, I am sure wont be winning by any 7 lengths. More likey he’ll be beaten 7 lengths if that’s all he can do when Kauto was not on song
________________
Come on Fist, get over it mate. You’re clearly still in denial.
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- Total Posts 17716
Denman is a galloper through and through, a very good one granted, but to suggest he did Kauto for pace after they had travelled less than 2m is just plain laughable.
His form when he beat Don’t Push it over the same course over 2m 4.5f on g/s ground reads;
made most, blundered 4th, hard ridden to draw 3 lengths clear after 2 out, pressed last, veered left 100yds out, stayed on well
In the Sun Alliance over 3m on g/s ground, he didn’t assert until 3 out, and had to be ridden right out to beat horses stones shy of Champion Chase class, and in the Lexus over 3m on g/s ground, he couldn’t put distance between himself and the archetypal plodder that Beef or Salmon now is.
It’s not my intention to knock Denman, he is undoubtedly a machine in his right circumstances, but please, no more of this Champion Chase horlicks.By my reckoning, Denman was slightly quicker from the last fence to the Cheltenham winning post than Kauto Star was.
Kauto Star simply met his match last Friday… and more !
Horse racing is not a science, as Brough Scott frequently reminded us, and no amount of excuses and post race analysis can change the fact that Kauto Star trailed in seven lengths behind Denman.
Can Kauto Star reverse places next year. In my opinion – no !
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Unfortunately your surrounded bty Reet and i so there’s no where to hide in the same way there will be no where for Denman to hide next year.
Denman may improve but I doubt it Kauto must have improved 10 lbs since last years gold cup, just never showed it on the day………despite never tavelling well hating the ground not feeling right to Ruby and looking well stuffed a long way from home, he a beaten horse and he has showed guts and determination to come back at Denman and would have probably got within 3 or 4 lengths of him but for a terrible blunder at the last.
Denman was out of his box by the time he got to the line and couldn’t have found an ounce more. I suggest you grab the 5/1 Kauto Star now wuth Cahsmans and make your self a few quid
Can Kauto Star reverse places next year. In my opinion – no !
Yes, if the Gold Cup is run at Kempton over 3 miles!
At Cheltenham, 3m 2f+…… well, er……..
- Total Posts 17716
Truth is, Fist, that I can’t ever see them racing again on anything but over-watered ground at the Festival, which plays right into the hands of the Denmans and Neptune Collonges of this world.
Fakenham isn’t a million miles from Cheltenham and about the same latitude, but they raced on g/f ground on the same day as the Gold Cup, which tells its own story.That was the very thing I said before the festival when watering was brought up but I didn’t expect it to affect Kauto if that indeed was the reason he was beaten.
I am dead against watering unless the ground is rock hard. D and K aside it’s totally unfair to owners and traners who need fastish ground for there horses……….I guess they feel it’s best if they can produce perfect good ground but the way the weather is in the UK chances are they never will.
I am not too concerned about next years ground …….soft ground can be ok to race in if it’s not drying and tacky…….which does stop good horses.
Twist Magic came through the ground at Sandown without a problem but never stayed a yard at Ascot so there’s soft and soft and good to soft and good to soft………..If luck was on his side and it came up proper good ground or even on the soft side of good I don’t think NC would get within 10 lengths of Kauto where that leaves Denman only time will tell.
Fakenham isn’t a million miles from Cheltenham and about the same latitude, but they raced on g/f ground on the same day as the Gold Cup, which tells its own story.
I’m not too sure that it does, Reet, as Fakenham
– is 190 miles away,
– has a different type of soil base,
– like Musselburgh rather further north is close enough to the east coast to get sea breezes which both dry the ground and at the same time keep things mild enough to race throughout even harsh winters (it’s no coincidence that Fakenham and Musselburgh regularly top the list of winter courses to have lost fewer meetings).I can’t remember what going Taunton produced on the Monday before the Festival, but its closer proximity to Cheltenham than Fakenham might serve it as a better example here.
gc
Jeremy Grayson. Son of immigrant. Adoptive father of two. Metadata librarian. Freelance point-to-point / horse racing writer, analyst and commentator wonk. Loves music, buses, cats, the BBC Micro, ale. Advocate of CBT, PACE and therapeutic parenting. Aspergers.
Something Fakenham and Cheltenham do have in common….both their Clerks couldnt give an accurate going description if their lives depended on it.
Taunton 85 miles from Cheltenham going on Monday was Soft-Heavy
but
at Stratford 32 miles from Cheltenham the going Good to Soft.
Colin
Ach, yes! I forgot Stratford raced on the Monday as well.
gc
Jeremy Grayson. Son of immigrant. Adoptive father of two. Metadata librarian. Freelance point-to-point / horse racing writer, analyst and commentator wonk. Loves music, buses, cats, the BBC Micro, ale. Advocate of CBT, PACE and therapeutic parenting. Aspergers.
Wouldn’t mtter to me what they say the best judges are the men who ride in the race……I haven’t heard anyone say it was great jumping ground……what Ruby Walsh said it was very tacky and Kauto couldn’t get his jumping together in it…I’m noot saying this now because Kauto was beaten I said it beforehand…….watering a course that is not rock hard is wrong,,,,,,,it works in the favour of horses who need cut in the ground…..how many horses were beatten that day who on a dryer surface would have possibly won? Damned if I know but if it was 1 it was 1 too many. It’s allright them saying they stopped but what we ended up with was some of the slowest times ever……….in short they messed up again………..of course they are going to say it’s good to soft better than saying it’s sh1t we messed up………be better off employing the greenkeeper at Hamilton Municiple golf course in sunny Scotland than the clowns they have there now.
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