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Well, you can’t take part in Erasmus if you aren’t in the EU. You can’t leave a club but still have all the benefits of being a member and this country voted to leave. We also lost the European Medicines Agency: that was probably the first thing to go. The comments from the guy interviewed in the covid enquiry* today ( can’t remember his name: assume he was a civil servant) regarding Johnson were quite damning eg Johnson really did say ‘let the bodies pile high’ and he really was considering being injected with covid to prove it wasn’t dangerous (very Trump like, that).. Whatever anyone thinks about Cummings, just remember that people are giving evidence under oath so, even if he might be bending his memory of events to suit himself there must be truth in what he says.
*it’s on page 30 of the transcript by the way…“Whatever anyone thinks about Cummings, just remember that people are giving evidence under oath so, even if he might be bending his memory of events to suit himself there must be truth in what he says”.
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Really Moehat?
Does a knife come up from the seat and cut him in half if telling a lie?Are you going to think “there must be truth in what he says” about Johnson after he takes the oath?
Most of them are passing the blame to limit the damage done to their own careers.
Value Is EverythingI think I take enough of an interest in parliament to get a pretty good idea as to whether someone is telling the truth or not! As my dear old mum would say, I may be cabbage looking but I’m not green!
‘Partly, as you say, because many locals are not particularly aware of the beliefs of their MP but mainly because the whole cohort are tarred with the same brush and held collectively responsible for the state of the country’
My local Tory MP seems bland and inoffensive enough and he does an alright job as far as I know. But the fact is that as you say voting for him is voting for the Tories and their vile policies. The way I see it, if he really doesn’t like what his party is doing, he is free to defect to another party or sit as an independent. If you stand on a Tory ticket, you endorse everything they are doing.
‘Bloody hell, I find myself agreeing with Richard and befair.
Am I turning socialist?
‘Haha, it’s simply that despite being moderately one side of the centre or the other, we are all to the left of the Tories in their current form. If they go much further right they’ll make me look like Chairman Mao.
In N Ireland our students still have access to the Erasmus programme, supported by The Irish govt as we have dual citizenship.
Many of the MP’s that supported Brexit have dual citizenship. So were never going to lose the benefits that the rest of us did. And Johnson’s father took out French citizenship. I’m glad that the people in N Ireland haven’t lost out on EU benefits given that, not only did they not vote for Brexit but it also threatened to take away the peace that it us took so long to achieve. But hey, when, during the Brexit debate some of us asked ‘what about Ireland’ our fears were ignored.
Thanks for reassuring me I am not a socialist, Richard. LOL
Conservatives did go too much to the right, when Truss became PM. I’d have definitely voted against the Conservatives had she still been in government. Rishi is from the centre of the party as are most of his government (with a few exceptions incl. Bravermann). Rishi tried to “unite the party” keeping the right of his party behind him by keeping one or two in his government. Just as Kier has kept some left wing in his shadow cabinet (Thornburry, Lami etc)… But it hasn’t worked. Tory right are still causing trouble.
However, if the Conservatives were as much to the right as you suggest, Richard; the right – Dorries, Truss, Mogg, Johnson etc. would be happy and quiet – but they’re not. Social media, press and TV are more interested in the Right because they’re more controversial. If Corbyn hadn’t given Starmer an excuse to get rid of him out of Labour, what Corbyn has said about Russia and Israel would’ve been bringing Labour down.
You say “The way I see it, if he really doesn’t like what his party is doing, he is free to defect to another party or sit as an independent. If you stand on a Tory ticket, you endorse everything they are doing”…
Presumably that applies to Labour too? If those in the right and centre of the Labour party had done what you say, wouldn’t Starmer and most of his now shadow cabinet have left Labour? Indeed, had both parties done as you say then Labour would be just Marxist Corbynites and Conservatives just Johnson / Trussites. How bad would that have been for the country?
Value Is Everything“it also threatened to take away the peace that it us took so long to achieve. But hey, when, during the Brexit debate some of us asked ‘what about Ireland’ our fears were ignored”.
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I think the chance of the situation taking away the peace was greatly exaggerated, Moehat. To put pressure on the MPs / Governments of UK and EU to find a better deal. How the …. did both Johnson and the EU think the original deal was good enough for Ireland? “Windsor Framework” is much better.
As a Remainer I was also one who asked “what about Ireland”? But it was covered quite a lot on the political scene prior to the vote. Don’t think our fears were ignored as such, just not believed.
Remainers were ignored by Corbyn’s Labour. When Labour / Corbyn and co failed to take the same stand as Cameron and co… Some (probably enough to make the difference) voted for Brexit thinking it was a vote against the ruling establishment.
Value Is EverythingJohnson is a devious, duplicitous sociopath, aptly described by Michael Heseltine as “a man who waits to see the way the crowd is running and then dashes in front and says, ‘Follow me’ ” but I don’t believe he’s actually of the far-right persuasion, being more centrist, with the proviso that it’s more than possible he doesn’t believe in anything or care for anyone but himself
The far left of the Labour Party have always been anti EU. I realised that at the start of the referendum debate when Labour voting friends of mine couldn’t decide which way to vote and, when out campaigning I was usually with Conservative and LibDem voters. My confusion started when I was chatting to some people on a vote remain stall at a local market, assumed they were from the Labour Party and then realised they were Conservatives. They were the ones that told me that the medicines agency would be the first casualty and they were right. I think that, after the next election I’m going to give up on politics and just read all the books I’ve meant to read and watch all the films I’ve never got round to seeing. It’s taking up far too much of my time!
’Presumably that applies to Labour too? If those in the right and centre of the Labour party had done what you say, wouldn’t Starmer and most of his now shadow cabinet have left Labour? Indeed, had both parties done as you say then Labour would be just Marxist Corbynites and Conservatives just Johnson / Trussites. How bad would that have been for the country?’
Indeed it does apply to Labour or anyone else. If Tories/Labour were left only with their most right/left MPs, they’d lose any majority they had and would would never get in again. It does also work the other way, I might vote for an MP locally that I don’t particularly like but I want the party as a whole in.
Any major party should of course be a broad church, I suspect that even now the Tories have a significant amount of the bland inoffensive type that I described earlier. However the small cohort furthest to the right get all the attention and seem to have a disproportionate amount of influence. Just as Corbyn was too far to the left for the electorate (again, most Labour MPs will be closer to the centre than he is), the Tories are now in a similar position.
The trouble is that Johnson threw out many of the decent moderate Conservative MP’s although they wouldn’t have served under him anyway.
“Johnson is a devious, duplicitous sociopath, aptly described by Michael Heseltine as “a man who waits to see the way the crowd is running and then dashes in front and says, ‘Follow me’ ” but I don’t believe he’s actually of the far-right persuasion, being more centrist, with the proviso that it’s more than possible he doesn’t believe in anything or care for anyone but himself”.
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I agree that Johnson didn’t begin from the right of the party, Drone. When first becoming leader I thought he was centre. Just that most of the centre and left of the party deserted him as he moved steadily towards the right. He ended up voting for Truss too. Although that may be more to do with an anti-Rishi vote / stance.
However, as far as Brexit goes: I can relate to writing a list of pros and cons when deciding which side to take. Because I’ve sometimes done it choosing who to back… And at the time Johnson made his decision to go for Brexit it was still very much seen as an unlikely outcome. So Heseltine’s description of “a man who waits to see the way the crowd is running and then dashes in front and says, ‘Follow me’”… doesn’t make sense… Despite the fact I was more on Heseltine’s side of the debate and certainly more of his side of the party… His words strike me as from a man who just hates Johnson for taking us out of the EU… So asking Heseltine anything about Johnson is not going to get a fair response.
Value Is EverythingIf you watch State of Chaos it shows that Johnson never expected vote leave to win and, when they did was in a state of shock because there was no plan. There never was a plan.It was all a series of three word sound bites. Cameron called the referendum because he was running scared of UKIP and the result of that is that his party has morphed into UKIP.
Heseltine hates Johnson because he has destroyed his party. Apart from Tony Benn I don’t think I’ve ever been in the presence of anyone as ministerial as Heseltine. I couldn’t decide if I should doff my cap. Or curtesy. Or both!
Heseltine hated Johnson even after Boris brought his party a massive majority in the last election, Moe. So Heseltine’s hatred of Johnson cannot be for destroying his party. It’s just added to the reason.
I agree that Heseltine has been a good or even great politician over the years. Just over Brexit I don’t think he can think straight because he appears to want to lash out all the time at everyone and everything associated with it. That said, if the media want a Conservative who’s going to bash Brexit and Boris… Who are ya’ gonna call? Ghostbusters or Heseltine?
Value Is Everything
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