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Raising of the Weights- Ireland

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  • #6380
    carvillshill
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    • Total Posts 2778

    This is directed to our official handicapper member:
    Can you explain the procedure for the raising of the weights in the Thyestes Chase today and how the top weight came to carry 11-7?
    I reckon in the UK he’d have had 11-12.
    Thanks

    #137552
    ratpack
    Member
    • Total Posts 96

    The procedure is designed to ensure that the top weight shoulders the minimum possible top weight.

    Due to the fact that all of the runners today were in the hcap proper it wasn’t necessary for Point Barrow to shoulder more than 11-7. However, if for example Don’t Be Daft was rated 7lb lower than his mark today (10-0) and he was due to be the bottom horse, the weights would’ve have risen 3lb to ensure he carried the minimum weight in the long hcap proper (9-10) and Point Barrow would’ve shouldered the maximum possible weight of
    11-10.

    As you say this differs from the English handicapper if you take Sky’s The Limit’s win in the Coral cup for exapmple where he had to shoulder the maximum 11-12 and the bottom weight only carried 10-11. If you took this race from an Irish handicap’s perspective Sky’s The Limit would have only carried 11-1 and the bottom weight would have been 10 stone.

    #137555
    carvillshill
    Participant
    • Total Posts 2778

    Cheers for that cogent and coherent explanation Ratpack!

    #10896
    carvillshill
    Participant
    • Total Posts 2778

    While the ridiculous rule remains here about the raising of the weights, I don’t see how anyone can have an ante-post wager on a race like this. If Notre Pere stands on a stone on Easter Monday morning or Jim Dreaper doesn’t like the look of the ground after the first, the weights will go up by at least 4lbs. Show the Irish Racing authorities what you think of their rule by boycotting ante-post betting on all big Irish handicaps until they revise this stupid rule.

    #220946
    prospero
    Member
    • Total Posts 15

    I would say the Irish Horse Racing Authorities could not care less whether we have an antepost bet on the race or not.

    #220950
    yeats
    Participant
    • Total Posts 3073

    It doesn’t affect ante-post betting, as you wouldn’t know the final weights anyway when placing one, it’s the day of the race market that is affected or the market after final declarations to be more precise.
    What about all the reserves they have there daily, many have won, if anything they are worse than a raising of the weights as you may not even know they are in the race when placing a bet.
    I can understand their thinking about trainers manipulating the weights, was there a number of cases of trainers doing it?

    #220967
    carvillshill
    Participant
    • Total Posts 2778

    You’re right Yeats, but the point is that people placing bets over the weekend after decs can have the goalposts moved on the day, a most unsatisfactory situation. Great play is made here of the weekend papers printing the final decs to drum up interest in the race- how many people realise that the weights in the paper are not neccessarily the weights that will be carried? Could the authorities care? Yes if the rule can be shown to affect turnover and if it attracts enough negative comment in the Press.
    As for trainers manipulating the weights, I’ve argued here before that you deal with that by censuring the individuals concerned, not by shafting the punter.

    #220975
    yorkshirepudding
    Member
    • Total Posts 608

    Threaten too cut the field down into divisions of eight horses per divison with level weights and divide up the prize money.

    That and strip he odd winnr on course would soon stamp it out.

    #221175
    carvillshill
    Participant
    • Total Posts 2778

    Article about this in today’s Post.
    Air Force One is a non-runner, so if Notre Pere (who will be declared) doesn’t run the weights will go up by at least 7lbs, probably more. The rule is that the lowest weighted declared runner has it’s weight raised to bring it into the handicap, but that the topweight must carry at least 11st.7lbs.
    Clear? Thought so. Try explaining that to your granny when she’s picking her horse from the paper on Monday morning.

    #221199
    yeats
    Participant
    • Total Posts 3073

    What is the cut off time Carvillshill, after which it’s "safe" to have a bet?

    #221246
    carvillshill
    Participant
    • Total Posts 2778

    I don’t know the answer to that Yeats- presumably when they’ve weighed out- even the Irish Turf Club couldn’t call thern all back in and ask them to put more lead in their saddles if Notre Pere went lame going down- could they?

    #221456
    davidbrady
    Member
    • Total Posts 3901

    Interview with Jim Dreaper on RTE there and Notre Pere is highly highly highly unlikely to run tomorrow:

    Quotes from Jim Dreaper:

    "Crazy thing to do to take a chance"
    "It’ll take a fair drop of rain to make it safe for my horse"
    "Wouldn’t have run in Gold Cup anyway – ground wasn’t suitable"
    "He’s in real good form, he’ll be kept going, he’s got an entry at Ayr next weekend, he’s entered at Sandown (although track is wrong way round) and Guinness (GC) at Punchestown – he’ll run in the first of those that are suitable"
    "We’ll come back and have a real crack at it next time"

    #221628
    Prufrock
    Participant
    • Total Posts 2081

    Notre Pere was withdrawn from Betfair’s market for the Irish Grand National at 12:16 UK time.

    According to Irish-racing.com, this was still not too late for the weight rise to be brought in and Wichita Lineman now goes off 11-07 rather than 11-00.

    #221629
    moehat
    Participant
    • Total Posts 7922

    Even Oddschecker seems to have Wichita Lineman down as carrying 11st; this is all a bit crazy.

    #221634
    yeats
    Participant
    • Total Posts 3073

    Notre Pere was withdrawn from Betfair’s market for the Irish Grand National at 12:16 UK time.

    According to Irish-racing.com, this was still not too late for the weight rise to be brought in and Wichita Lineman now goes off 11-07 rather than 11-00.

    It was withdrawn well before that time and as you say WL is now on 11st 7lb.

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