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All this waffle about getting on grates,anyone who takes their betting seriously never bets with Bookmakers these days anyway.An example again from Royal Ascot saw War Envoy freely available on the High st at 16/1 on the morning of the race 23’s on the machine.Subsequent results and market force saw his odds contract significantly during the afternoon 12/1 on the High St and 14’s on the machine, however 5 mins before the off ‘War Envoy’ traded at 10/1 in the ring but a massive 19’s on the machine so those of us who thought he was a good thing were never going to back him with the Bookmakers and be limited,we’re going to get as much as we liked on at the ridiculous odds of 19’s.Money talks at this game but at the big meetings it shouts.
Undoubtedly Gord, you can get good prices on horses at times, like you mentioned with War Envoy above. In reality, over 50% of horses, sometimes considerably more, that win UK races every day are shorter in price come the off than they are at 11am on the exchanges. (Data all available via betfair)
The dilemma as a punter is do you jump through hoops to get on, or bet in the markets closest to the off where you regularly will lose the value about a runner.
Bookmakers are to the detriment of UK racing, no doubts about it and would be better of without them.
Undoubtedly Gord, you can get good prices on horses at times, like you mentioned with War Envoy above. In reality, over 50% of horses, sometimes considerably more, that win UK races every day are shorter in price come the off than they are at 11am on the exchanges. (Data all available via betfair)
The dilemma as a punter is do you jump through hoops to get on, or bet in the markets closest to the off where you regularly will lose the value about a runner.
Bookmakers are to the detriment of UK racing, no doubts about it and would be better of without them.
Interesting quote Tim,I’d have thought that nearer 99% of horses are a bigger price on the machine than they are in the Shops.I very rarely bet with cash these days unless I’m wanting Cash back but I know from plenty previous encounters that if I frequent my 3 local Ladbrokes and have my max allowed wager of £100 e/w at any price,the other 2 shops are expecting me before I even get there.Online I can have the same wager but only the once with Ladbrokes,thats how it is.If I’m sensing a gamble which funnily enough occurs with most of my selections then I’m on the machine as there are some proper numpties on there who offer stupid prices based on nothing more than greed.Of course I can lay off my 25/1 Ante-Post wager at Ev money in running at times something else you cant do stood in Ladbrokes.My point is Bookmakers hate the Exchanges and the future is the ‘Machine’ but I personally use both to suit my cause.I look forward to reading this ‘Bettors Forum’ as there’s so much to discuss about individuals styles of betting…I might even apply for a job there and see if I can influence the younger generation to bet Ante-Post.Could there be another TAPK waiting in the wings??
People are comparing bookmakers and exchanges in the wrong way. It is no good comparing over-rounds with one bookmaker against over-rounds of an exchange in the last few minutes before the off. Of course at that point the value is with exchange.
But the fact is bookmakers offer Early prices and competition means looking at the best Early Price for every horse from all bookmakers creates a reasonable over-round. At a similar time, exchanges lack liquidity.
So it is fairer to compare when bookmakers prices are at their best (Early Prices) with exchanges when they are at their best (just before the off)… These bookmaker’s “best Early Price books” will still have a bigger over-round than exchanges do just before the off; with most of the exchange prices beating the bookmakers Early price. But because the exchange is a later market – although the over-round is less – the market has got to know the fair chance of each horse a lot better than a bookmaker’s Early market. ie The value is spread so widely on a late market exchange (at least away from the long shots) that each price is close to the fair/true price. Even those who appear very good bets on “form” are actually around their fair/true price, because someone somewhere knows something form students don’t (less likely to run to form than pure form study can show)… Where as with a best price Early Odds book – although the book may have a bigger over-round – individual horses are often much bigger than they should be. ie Let’s face it – Any good judge of form that identifies an individual horse at a much bigger price than (in his/her opinion) it should be… Knows if not taking it there and then – other good judges will and the price tumbles.
Of course the problem is good judges find it difficult to get on with bookmakers. The Early Odds market is much more competitive than it once was and bookmakers seem to work from a smaller over-round than they did. So Ian Davies is correct; because profit margins are small you can not blame them from closing accounts – even though it is extremely frustrating.
I asked an ex-rep of a leading bookmaker what makes them close accounts. He told me it is not whether it is a winning or losing account that matters. It is if the average bet taken beats starting price by over 20%. If no, then they know any short term profit is likely to be returned with interest. If yes, then they know even a losing account will quickly turn in to a winning one.
Value Is EverythingGood post – a lot of sense talked there. ^^^^
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It's the "Millwall FC" of Point broadcasts: "No One Likes Us - We Don't Care"As it stands now – Bookmakers are good for punters, they give competition. However, it would be possible to do away with bookmakers and still be good for punters if (and only “if”)over-rounds of pool betting were to be reduced dramatically and kept low by law.
Why – in this day and age – is it not possible for a Tote style pool bet to have a take out that varies directly by number of runners? Not the same take out for every race.
It would also be possible to do away with bookmakers legally, without the need for a pay off. All you need (once the Fred Done monopoly expires) is a pool bet set up by racing benefactors. With highly competitive over-rounds so small as to make it impossible for odds-compilers to accurately assess a field to that standard. These “benefactors” making it known that the company will be given to “Racing” once their expenses for setting it up are paid for. Making it impossible for conventional bookmakers to compete and they’d soon give up.
Value Is EverythingConnections must notify the Authorities (and therefore Press) of any horse who’s undergone a breathing operation.
Value Is EverythingAll this waffle about getting on grates,anyone who takes their betting seriously never bets with Bookmakers these days anyway.An example again from Royal Ascot saw War Envoy freely available on the High st at 16/1 on the morning of the race 23’s on the machine.Subsequent results and market force saw his odds contract significantly during the afternoon 12/1 on the High St and 14’s on the machine, however 5 mins before the off ‘War Envoy’ traded at 10/1 in the ring but a massive 19’s on the machine so those of us who thought he was a good thing were never going to back him with the Bookmakers and be limited,we’re going to get as much as we liked on at the ridiculous odds of 19’s.Money talks at this game but at the big meetings it shouts.
If money had talked with War Envoy he would not have been 20 at the off on Betfair and for good money. He was an artificial price with bookmakers as they wanted to restrict any possible roll up money on Moore mounts as well as him being Pricewise.
On the contrary to what you say money doesn’t particularly shout at the big meetings like Ascot as the markets are so strong, that’s one of the reasons a Tote/Exchange monopoly would be so good for punters and racing especially at big meetings. Punters who ended up with 10/1 would have got a much more representative, bigger price on a Tote/Exchange.
As you state you regularly get £100 ew on at any price with a Ladbrokes shop as well as online despite you saying anyone who takes their betting seriously never bets with bookmakers, must mean that you’re most unlikely to be one of the long term winners who deserves to be restricted according to Ian Davies in any case.
They’d be mugs not to keep taking your 100 ew’s if you keep losing.
How would you operate if you were a bookmaker, Mr Yeats?
I would be really interested to know.
I am "The Horse Racing Punter" on Facebook
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It's the "Millwall FC" of Point broadcasts: "No One Likes Us - We Don't Care"I would think the rule 4 on the Pitmans Derby because of Clever Cookie would put new punters off.The shortning of horses horses that have bolted ect needs to be addressed.
If you go to back a certainty always buy a return ticket.
How would you operate if you were a bookmaker, Mr Yeats?
I would be really interested to know.
I would concentrate on FOBT’s (particularly) and football.
And you Mr Davies?
Horse betting is an old mans game.
Horse racing is a rich persons game.
They need to look long term. It’s easy to like football because anyone can play the game, when you are younger you want to play and can get interested in the game that way. Every school should get allocated a retired racehorse, very educational with lessons on mucking out, training, riding etc, much better than gardening club. Then the schools could compete against each other, what great fun and a lot more youngsters would take an interest on the racing on a Saturday afternoon on the box or even ask Mother or Father to take them to the races.Gaelic Warrior Gold Cup Winner 2026
Same, Mr Yeats.
I would focus on FOBTs if I had a shop and if so was operating online on events where I thought it was hard for punters to do it professionally to get an edge.
Obviously there are a lot of losing horse racing punters out there but there are numerous clever ones too and anyone who thinks it is a licence to print money should try it themselves – they would soon learn why bookies play the punter, not the bet.
I am "The Horse Racing Punter" on Facebook
https://mobile.twitter.com/Ian_Davies_
https://www.facebook.com/ThePointtoPointNHandFlatracingpunter/
It's the "Millwall FC" of Point broadcasts: "No One Likes Us - We Don't Care"tbh If I had kids would be in two minds whether I wanted a school to get them interested in “Racing”. Becoming “interested” in a sport intrinsically linked to gambling. Let’s face it, there are far more people with a problem and/or losing heavily – than there are winning punters and/or making good money at the game.
Value Is EverythingYou would be able to train them up ginge.
Son – ‘Dad I failed my maths test’
ginge – ‘you’ve put shame on this family, you’re grounded’Gaelic Warrior Gold Cup Winner 2026
tbh If I had kids would be in two minds whether I wanted a school to get them interested in “Racing”. Becoming “interested” in a sport intrinsically linked to gambling. Let’s face it, there are far more people with a problem and/or losing heavily – than there are winning punters and/or making good money at the game.
Do you wished you’d been “protected” from the evils of racing and betting when you were a youngster Ginger?
Just think how much fun and money you would have been deprived of.You often see groups of young schoolchildren going around racecourses prior to racing, it’s good to see.
Education, education, education Ginger not ignorance.
We are not forced to bet ; we do so because we have chosen to do so.
All my children like to have a bet – mainly because of me.
It’s the buzz , they tell me . Whenever there is a major race
forthcoming , I am bombarded with requests for the winner,
as in …
Dad, what’s going to win the Ayr Gold Cup etc.
I tell them they are only attempting to apportion blame – on me
when said nag loses. True !
Gambling Only Pays When You're Winning
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