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You would be able to train them up ginge.
Son – ‘Dad I failed my maths test’
ginge – ‘you’ve put shame on this family, you’re grounded’:lol:
Value Is Everything<div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>Gingertipster wrote:</div>
tbh If I had kids would be in two minds whether I wanted a school to get them interested in “Racing”. Becoming “interested” in a sport intrinsically linked to gambling. Let’s face it, there are far more people with a problem and/or losing heavily – than there are winning punters and/or making good money at the game.Do you wished you’d been “protected” from the evils of racing and betting when you were a youngster Ginger?
Just think how much fun and money you would have been deprived of.You often see groups of young schoolchildren going around racecourses prior to racing, it’s good to see.
Education, education, education Ginger not ignorance.
I’ve seen them too Yeats. Even asked the teachers about it. Apprently it is treated as a Maths lesson. Race distances, jockeys weights etc. But they’re not allowed to “educate” about betting. Said I’d teach them about the “Table Of Odds And Chances”… but guess what? They declined my kind offer.
If only kids were taught about odds (indeed “not ignorance”). Watch out! I feel a life history coming on…Ginge – The Early Years:
Well, in fact do remember my Maths teacher telling me about different ways to express a fraction… One quarter = 0.25% = 1/4 = 3 to 1 etc. But unfortunately the latter’s significance never explained fully. Could’ve saved me some money; then again might have put me off betting for life!My mother did try to “protect” me. As a kid in 1980 she could tell I was getting in to Racing. Thinking I’d be put off if seeing it as a “mugs game”, gave me an exercise book to write down every wager I would have if allowed to bet… But it back-fired; by some miracle made a (theoretical) profit! Thought I knew everythng.
At 18 I put £200 in to a deposit account with a local bookmaker and phoned my bets through. First bet Prince Sabo – won. Second bet Commanche Court in St Leger – won. Then proceeded to lose the lot within a couple of months… After that just concentrated on big races with a few ante-post bets and again had a bit of luck. First, Oh So Sharp in the 1000 – just got up. Second bet (I believe he won a Newmarket Trial on the same day as OSS) Slip Anchor for the Derby @ 16/1. Put on a day or so before winning the Lingfield Trial. Have a lot to thank Steve Cauthen and Sir Henry Cecil for. Bought my first Timeform book with some of the winnings, realised what “studying form” really meant and never looked back. Lucky to find the boys of Halifax, otherwise things may have turned out differently.
Did say am in “two minds”. Love this sport of ours and wish any son/daughter of mine could enjoy everything about it like I do. But also have to be realistic, not every person can cope the same – no matter how we educate them.
Value Is EverythingIt appears to me that those who advocate a Tote monopoly just haven’t thought things through.
Where will the money come from to start it up ? Where will people place their bets ? Where will the money to replace lost bookmaker sponsorship come from ? Where will the money to replace lost media rights money come from ?
It would have to make vast profits from year one ( I’m sorry no waiting around – year one profit in the £100’s of millions needed).
This is not to mention the fact that puntes will have to be educated in betting in a way totaly allien to most of them and in numbers far more than bet on racing now. It will almost certainly lose punters rather than gain them.
Racing has several problms and the relationship between it and bookmakers is just one of them. It needs to be addressed but a tote monopoly is a no go. Like them or not they hold the whip hand. Racing needs them more than they need racing in the same way that racing needs C4 more than C4 needs racing.
Nice to see the real Diane Avis back …snapping , barking , verbal whiplash ….yes sir …where the hell have you been ????
for what it worth you are making perfect sense on this issue , as is Yeats,,,but in truth nothing matters , as the game will be sewn up in a year or 2 when there are ample AW fixtures to feed the betting shop wallers
The remaining bettors will be on the machine …the big divide , racing will get peanuts , the betting right will be stalled in the courts , could well take a further 3 years to a hearing , by which time it will be on its knees
Someone ,,,sometime is going to have to look at self funding …until then , the bookies will rule
Graham
It appears to me that those who advocate a Tote monopoly just haven’t thought things through.
Where will the money come from to start it up ?
Millionaire racing benefactors.
Where will people place their bets?
Betting shops will be a thing of the past in another 10 years. Bets will be on the internet or phone etc.
Where will the money to replace lost bookmaker sponsorship come from?
Non-racing and self sponsership from new Tote.
Where will the money to replace lost media rights money come from?
Betting.
It would have to make vast profits from year one ( I’m sorry no waiting around – year one profit in the £100’s of millions needed).
If punters were given such a good deal that odds were better with the new company and they knew profits stayed in racing – Why would they bet anywhere else?
This is not to mention the fact that punters will have to be educated in betting in a way totaly allien to most of them and in numbers far more than bet on racing now. It will almost certainly lose punters rather than gain them.
In the short term – possibly. But punters are more intelligent than you give them credit for Kasparov.
Racing has several problms and the relationship between it and bookmakers is just one of them. It needs to be addressed but a tote monopoly is a no go. Like them or not they hold the whip hand. Racing needs them more than they need racing in the same way that racing needs C4 more than C4 needs racing.
I myself don’t mind bookmakers, it’s just exploring the possibility.
Value Is EverythingHorse racing will never flourish here while it is dependent on bookmakers.
Anyone who thinks Rust wants to help punters is living in cloud cuckoo land and why anyone with any intelligence would be interested in joining this farce of a horseracing bettors forum is baffling.
All Rust is interested in regarding punters, is getting more money off them via the bookmakers.
Horse racing will never flourish here while it is dependent on bookmakers.
Anyone who thinks Rust wants to help punters is living in cloud cuckoo land and why anyone with any intelligence would be interested in joining this farce of a horseracing bettors forum is baffling.
All Rust is interested in regarding punters, is getting more money off them via the bookmakers.
Can understand anyone being sceptical Yeats.
But even if probability is little will come of this “initiative”; doesn’t mean people should not try… and I for one applaud those “punters” willing to take part in this Bettors Forum.
Imagine the bad publicity that could happen if everything the forum come up with is ignored! Even more so if there’s widespread resignations from forum members if nothing is done! Infinately worse than Jim McGrath walking out many years ago.
Value Is Everything<
Can understand anyone being sceptical Yeats.
But even if probability is little will come of this “initiative”; doesn’t mean people should not try… and I for one applaud those “punters” willing to take part in this Bettors Forum.
Imagine the bad publicity that could happen if everything the forum come up with is ignored! Even more so if there’s widespread resignations from forum members if nothing is done! Infinately worse than Jim McGrath walking out many years ago.They won’t do anything solely for the benefit of punters Gingertipster. They will cherry pick any suggestions that will benefit themselves or their bookie friends, or give some credit to the bettors forum for suggestions that would have been implemented anyway. That should placate some and think they are being listened to but wont fool the majority.
eg If the BHA decided to introduce sectional timing why not give credit to the Bettors Forum for suggesting it? It wouldn’t cost them anything and it would keep one or two members of the Bettors forum happy wouldn’t it?The BHA dont want punters to benefit from anything, they want them to lose so they can receive more but it wont last. Punters are being turned away from the sport by not getting bets on with bookmakers, bookmakers will get along fine without these punters (FOBT’s football etc), racing will not.
Nothing will be solved regards horse racing whilst bookmakers are running the show.
Early Price bookies market has got ultra-competitive Yeats. More bookmakers and those bookies are trying to compete with exchanges (particularly betfair). These markets are far more competitive than they used to be which means Early Price over-rounds are worse for bookmakers now than they were in the “good old days”. Worse over-rounds mean there’s less profit in the race for bookmakers and therefore (however frustrating it is to me and people like me) they can not afford to keep letting us on all the time; or (sadly with some) any time.
Punters (including myself) moan because they “can’t get on” and things were “better when I were a lad”. But they never moan about the Early Prices being better than they were years ago – and therefore easier for the average punter today than it has ever been. Of course that in turn means bookies will need to close or restrict more accounts of knowledgeable punters to maintain profits.
If it wasn’t for Betfair/Exchanges and more on line bookmakers – being so good for punters – there’d be less competition, without them bookmakers would offer bigger over-rounds (worse prices) and therefore could afford to keep more “successful” punters on their books and/or wouldn’t need to knock them back. But who would be in favour of that?
Value Is EverythingI must apologise if the issue I’m about to bring up has previously been covered. I’m afraid I admit to being lazy and have not read through the whole thread.
Other than the integrity of the sport (which must be the single most important issue of all), a near second must be the integrity of bookmakers. I refer to bookmakers that close the accounts of punters. This for me is absolutely unacceptable. The whole nature of the betting business is that sometimes you (punter / bookie) win or sometimes you lose. Statistically 92% of punters lose in the long run (apologies if this figure is no longer correct but it can’t be far off nevertheless), so if a bookie cannot accommodate the 8% that win the bookie shouldn’t be in business. The nature of gambling and bookmaking is that a bookmaker offers a price on any given selection, the punter backs his judgement against it. If you only allow punters that lose to bet then that is corruption, almost legalised theft – that is unacceptable, it is unethical and it is wrong.
Bookmakers must not be allowed to close accounts as they now do. Somebody needs to make a stand against it.
Good to read there’s already been plenty of interest in this project.
Would encourage everyone to provide Simon and team plenty of constructive input, myself included.
One thing I’d like the punters forum to look at is the use of pacemakers. Am not totally against them as long as the jockey acts in the best interests of the horse he’s riding. eg Hans Holbein seemed to be deliberately ridden to the detriment of his own chance; having absolutely no hope of winning. I don’t mind a horse making a strong even pace, but not seemingly going off at a ridiculously fast pace in an obvious attempt to draw connection’s rivals to follow – having nothing left and (if successful in those tactics) leading to a held up stable companion (who hasn’t chased the suicidal pace) coming through to win. Other than ruining Elm Park’s chance, fortunately nothing else followed Hans Holbein. Pace Seamie Heffernan went that day was not up to the standard expected of a jockey and should be banned for riding an “injudicious” race.
Value Is EverythingDoes nearly 100 = flocking? Maybe so but as I read on another forum today Rust’s modus operandi will not be to help punters, he wants to understand how to relieve them of more money.
British racing makes more money, the more punters lose and anyone who joins this farcical BHA punters forum will be like a turkey giving advice on how to best re-merchandise the Paxo
Couldn’t have put it better myself.
Simon passed the following email to me a few weeks ago. Probably a good idea to send your constructive criticism, suggestions etc.
This is not personal
This will be a toothless talking shop , nothing will change , it will be abandoned within 2 years
A total and utter waste of time
The bookies dont give a hoot about racing ….so its doomed from the start
I say it now , remember this when it is disbanded
There are circa 4 million regular gamblers in the UK across all sport and there are circa 8 million people who attend races in the UK. Whilst investing in developing and retaining the existing pool of regular gamblers is a good thing, the forum also needs to turn it’s attention too developing the next wave of gamblers from the potential of tapping into the young and the occasional/recreational racegoers.
I see the following challenges:
1) Racing has an old man’s game/corrupt stigma about it that puts people off
2) Setting up betting accounts and understanding the lingo of horse racing in order to make informed choices is a step too far for most people
3) The record attendances at major meetings this year has shown racing can attract the crowds. What it has failed to do is to create a betting experience for race day crowds that results in return visits/betting outside of major race days.Recently I spent a few hours with some of my novice/recreational racer friends and taught them how to setup a bookmaker online account, showed them how to read the form and place a bet with the many tools available, had them watch the race play out and then encouraged them to try doing it all on their own a couple of times. Amazingly a few of them have started betting on a regular basis, as they are enjoying the experience.
So some practical ideas I would like to throw in:
1) Perhaps the Betting Forum could achieve a quick win by doing what I did to some of the 8 million punters (only need 200K to meet their targets) that flock to the courses each year in the hope that some of them become converts. We could even crowdsource the professional help to teach people from this forum.
2) Perhaps the members of this forum could do their bit to help, by taking part in a ‘Train a Novice Day’ (which I would only be too happy to setup) where we all take the challenge of helping a novice race goer get up to speed with betting and winner finding.
3) Perhaps we could automate all this and have an online training, courses, certification, etc aimed at this group to help build their knowledge and confidence.Any other thoughts on this?
This is not personal
This will be a toothless talking shop , nothing will change , it will be abandoned within 2 years
A total and utter waste of time
The bookies dont give a hoot about racing ….so its doomed from the start
I say it now , remember this when it is disbanded
It might be a waste of time, but nobody can say for definite and therefore why not try?
Value Is Everything
If only kids were taught about odds (indeed “not ignorance”). Watch out! I feel a life history coming on…
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