The home of intelligent horse racing discussion
The home of intelligent horse racing discussion

Presvis British and Irish Options?

Home Forums Horse Racing Presvis British and Irish Options?

Viewing 17 posts - 1 through 17 (of 47 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #12588
    Maxilon 5
    Member
    • Total Posts 2432

    Hi chaps,

    Are there any options for Presvis other than an international campaign? Could he run in the Champion Stakes as a gelding?

    What about next season? Does a gelding of this quality have no choice but to run abroad? Or is the wily one making a point.

    Cheers in advance.

    #247843
    yeats
    Participant
    • Total Posts 3140

    Why run here for considerably lower prize money?

    #247845
    Anonymous
    Inactive
    • Total Posts 17716

    I know geldings can’t run in the Arc nor can they run in UK classics…suppose the Champion Stakes is the same.

    #247850
    Silvoir
    Participant
    • Total Posts 270

    Group 1s for older horses (ie 3yo and over) are open to geldings – in fact the only Group races not open to geldings (apart from fillies and mares races obviously) are:

    2000 Guineas
    Derby
    St James’s Palace
    St Leger

    Not sure about overseas except that Fist is correct about the Arc

    #247852
    Glenn
    Participant
    • Total Posts 1988

    Surely a rematch of the Schuco International Maiden Stakes (Div I) can be arranged? You could get Deano back to ride Times Vital to add some colour and see if Mr Murphy could improve on his fifth placing to such stars of the game as Tanto Faz and French Art.

    You could get Tellwrong to produce ground that suits everyone, from firm to heavy in the same race, so there are no excuses on that score.

    #247912
    Maxilon 5
    Member
    • Total Posts 2432

    Cheers fellas.

    I was really looking forward to seeing this animal run.

    Yeats, as I’ve written before, the bleating of billionaire owners and millionaire stud owner trainers about prize money is a bit unedifying. The complaints of lower/middle range owners and working class syndicates I’ll listen to, but Cumani? Nah. If there’s one geezer in Newmarket not short of a shekel or too it’s the wily Italian.

    I’m generally a Cumani fan but he’s irritating me with this little tantrum. If there’s one flat racing country in desperate need of a star at the moment it’s Great Britain, and that potential star Presvis running in HK is not what I want to read over my Rice Krispies.

    If I was the BHA, I’d be looking at horses recieving a similar "Haydock style" preparation from his yard.

    And then hit him hard

    . After all, British punters helped pay to train Presvis – why shouldn’t we get the benefit?

    #247937
    wit
    Participant
    • Total Posts 2165

    I was standing next to LC and two of the five joint owners for the QE II in April.

    Don’t know about his finances – you have to count the liabilities as well as the assets – but before the race LC looked totally haunted and on the point of a coronary.

    Neither of the two owners (Mr Bailey and Mr Booth) – both also on tenterhooks – looked like millionaires: both looked much like your category of middle/lower range owners who had struck lucky.

    Good luck to them, and look forward to seeing them back in HK come December 13.

    Don’t know if this is what prompted your post, but it suggests at best any run in GB beforehand will be a prep:

    http://www.sportinglife.com/racing/news … esvis.html

    best regards

    wit

    #247944
    Adrian
    Participant
    • Total Posts 1041

    Wit is spot on about the owners of Presvis.

    He is entered for the Dubai Champion Stakes at Newmarket. Presumably Luca will want to give him a prep run over here before Hong Kong in December and then he will probably go to Dubai for the Carnival. Selfishly I also hope he’ll turn up in Singapore again as I’d love him to win this time.

    #247964
    Maxilon 5
    Member
    • Total Posts 2432

    Fair comment about the owners. However I’m sure they backed their horse seriously at Newbury and were also party to what were two extremely, er, interesting – nay,

    famous

    – runs apparently planned to educate and further prepare Presvis to be the monster he’s about to become.

    And Cumani’s training fees are thought to be amongst the most expensive in the country so I won’t be sending a percentage of my wages to the owners

    just

    yet.

    It’s ok for you lot out in the yonder, but us fanatics are never going to see this horse again because as far as I can see, the trainer is being truculent about prize money.

    There are options: The Champion Stakes is a decent race worth a lot of money. Next year, when Presvis presumably takes his summer break, he’ll miss the Eclipse, a race which goes back to the late nineteenth century and is worth over a quarter of a million pounds and is sponsored by a bookmaker committed to British racing – unlike several competitors. They deserve support.

    A traditional campaign might also take in the Juddmonte too, a shambles of a betting race this year. That race is worth over a quarter of a million to the winner. What more do people want? At what point do rich people say ‘I’ve got enough money, thanks, lets race for the glory and tradition’.

    Cumani was quite happy to use the loopholes running through the British handicapping system to prepare his gelding. Now he can’t leave us behind fast enough.

    It’s not good enough, chaps. It’s not good enough at all.

    This has been the worst year I can remember for quality British horses. Where have they all gone?

    (Thank God for the Irish this season, and thank God for Rachel, MTB and Zenyatta over the pond, otherwise I’d have joined the housewives doing the school uniform money on the roulette machines.)

    And when we finally get a horse we can all cheer and wave, he’s off like Drake robbing Aztec gold on the other side of the world because his trainer has a monk on about the Levy.

    Ironically, the Hong Kong and Singapore races are administered by two of the toughest regimes in the racing world and the Haydock run would have been punished unmercifully. Some might say in draconian fashion. I understand the HKJC can prevent ‘suspicious’ horses running in any race for any reason they choose. Mr Cumani would have had to campaign his horse quite differently and thus, this whole outcome may have been different.

    Enjoy the horse. Not a lot I can do about it, really. :(

    #247973
    Anonymous
    Inactive
    • Total Posts 17716

    Max
    Truculent he may be, naive he certainly isn’t.
    Does he campaign him through the summer, running for the odd prize which amounts to about a fortnight’s wages for a half-decent footballer, or does he have him fit for an international winter, when there are any number of 7 figure pots there for the taking?
    We’d all like to see horses like him raced in this country but, with no future in the breeding sheds to keep him at home, and his conditions almost guaranteed in the warmth of more tropical climes, it makes absolute sense to capitalise on the opportunities offered and Luca Cumani’s never been one to be shy of taking them.
    Kieran Fallon’s going to look none too daft for latching on to him, either?
    :)

    #247984
    wit
    Participant
    • Total Posts 2165

    ….This has been the worst year I can remember for quality British horses. Where have they all gone?

    …..And when we finally get a horse we can all cheer and wave, he’s off like Drake robbing Aztec gold on the other side of the world because his trainer has a monk on about the Levy.

    bear in mind exchange rates, which are beyond anyone’s control.

    QE II day in 2008 – 15.4 HKD to 1 GBP
    HK Cup day 2008 – 11.6
    QE II day 2009 – 11.4
    Today – 12.7

    if the BBC slider is correct, its entirely possible GBP will soon resume a downward trend against other currencies:

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/8214272.stm

    …..which internationally could boost the attraction of GB as a relatively low-cost yet experienced developer of racehorses at the upper end to be travelled elsewhere to do their serious racing.

    that may be the real message coming from Cumani, Gosden, etc,, there obviously being only so much the BHB can do (even if it wanted to) in terms of redistributing prize-money to the top end to compensate for currency movements.

    best regards

    wit

    #247985
    Maxilon 5
    Member
    • Total Posts 2432

    RH, he’s definitely not naive, is Mr Cumani. As I said at the beginning I’m generally a fan – his dictums about time, prisoners, leeches and parasites have been etched into folklore – but he’s taking a petulant approach all too far here.

    John Oxx was desperate to run STS on home soil last Saturday so that the people of Ireland could see him up close.

    What would you say the British racing constituency is? Three million people? Four? None of us are going to see Presvis any time soon at a time when British racing desperately needs stars.

    I’m in the process of writing Mr Cumani an imploring letter on the matter. I suppose that’s a bit like King Canute’s lesser talented nephew Olaf trying to stop a tsunami off the Moluccas, but there you go. I can’t be the only person disappointed at his action plan. :shock:

    #247986
    Maxilon 5
    Member
    • Total Posts 2432

    Wit, thanks for the info. I don’t deny the practicality of the Plan – I’m not

    that

    stupid – just the selfishness of it all. It’s a shame.

    It’s the good horses that racegoers enjoy, Wit. Not the owners or the trainers. Not the jockeys – you could put remote controlled Action Man on top of an animal that quickened like Presvis did in Dubai and the punters would be queuing round the block before the next meeting to see it again. The good horses guarantee a full house every bit as much as a Ladies Day or a Psychedelic Furs resurrection in the paddock.

    Case in point? Thirty six thousand people turned out to see Rachel last Saturday at the Spa in a country whose horse racing infrastructure is always a day away from going belly up. They

    needed

    a Rachel and I reckon British flat racing has reached the stage where it needs a Presvis. This isn’t the time for Mr Cumani – or Mr Gosden – to be making a protest.

    But, as Adrian said earlier, you get to see the animal up close. I’m envious of that.

    #247991
    yeats
    Participant
    • Total Posts 3140

    Presvis has won nearly 2 million so far, I guess he would have won about a quarter of that, if as successful here, a no brainer really. As Cumani says the prestige is here but the money abroad.
    I expect the owners would be looking for a new trainer if he didn’t try and maximise their returns. I would, it costs a fortune to have a horse in training here for ever decreasing returns due to the bookmaker connection, when you do have a good horse you have to make the most of it.
    In todays paper he states he expects to run in Hong Kong, followed by Dubai then Hong Kong again.

    If John Oxx is so keen to please the public maybe he’ll persuade the owner to keep STS in training as a 4 & 5yo.

    #248038
    Maxilon 5
    Member
    • Total Posts 2432

    Clearly, we’re not in the entertainment business then, yeats. It’s all about the cash.

    Direct question. Would you like to see Presvis run live?

    #248173
    wit
    Participant
    • Total Posts 2165

    It’s the good horses that racegoers enjoy,..Not the owners or the trainers. Not the jockeys…

    … I reckon British flat racing has reached the stage where it needs a Presvis

    i don’t disagree with that.

    but it seems not to be the way that Racing for Change wants to take things in GB: see Julian Muscat in The Times today:

    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/ … 829230.ece

    leaving aside the prize-money angle, is it too fanciful to suggest that the way things are going in GB, the horse might just be more appreciated elsewhere?

    …and that GB fans maybe should expect to have to travel a bit further in future to see quality – joys of internationalisation, and all that?

    best regards

    wit

    #248202
    Irish Stamp
    Member
    • Total Posts 3177

    The only races where we can attract the very best are the big sprints at Royal Ascot – the world racing press were talking about it, the British press were excited as everyone else was excited and the trainers were moaning it was won by a horse who’s sire won at 12f.

    British racing generally is too insular but we aren’t helping ourselves with the fighting, brawls, drunkards etc. that inhabit Newmarket, Sandown, Kempton, Haydock etc.

Viewing 17 posts - 1 through 17 (of 47 total)
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.