Non triers

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This topic contains 179 replies, has 47 voices, and was last updated by Woolf121 Woolf121 4 months ago.

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  • #24812
    Woolf121
    Woolf121
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    Interesting comments from respectable sources re Non Triers.

    "Non-triers are rarely picked up by the racecourse stewards… who seem blind to such things.’’ Timeform.

    "There are plenty on a weekly basis that we suspect aren’t running on their merits, but then there’s nothing new in that," Simon Walker head of editorial, Timeform.

    David Cleary, a long-serving race analyst and former editor of Chasers & Hurdlers, is more worried about "horses of established merit who have clear chances on form and yet who apparently underperform without any valid explanation offered". He feels there are "several" cases each week. Asked if stewards are doing enough to seek explanations when this happens, Cleary says: "I don’t think they are but that seems to come down from the BHA. I think there are people on the BHA side who are aware of what is going on but there needs to be a will to tackle this thing."

    Some within racing quietly agree with trainer Barry Hills, reported to have said, on retiring from the sport last year: "Don’t police it too much – it wants a bit of skulduggery".

    I would argue that there are non triers on a daily basis rather than ”weekly” as quoted above.

    The backer is doomed to fail without
    genuine information.

    #453058
    betlarge
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    I would argue that there are non triers on a daily basis rather than ”weekly” as quoted above.

    Evidence??

    The backer is doomed to fail without
    genuine information.

    Untrue. Evidence??

    Anyway, as I politely asked on your other thread:

    What were a few of your favourite horses in recent seasons and why?

    I’d be interested to know.

    Mike

    #453077
    Woolf121
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    I would argue that there are non triers on a daily basis rather than ”weekly” as quoted above.

    Evidence??

    The backer is doomed to fail without
    genuine information.

    Untrue. Evidence??

    Anyway, as I politely asked on your other thread:

    What were a few of your favourite horses in recent seasons and why?

    I’d be interested to know.

    Mike

    Where is your evidence to base your ”untrue” remark.

    I like all horses, I don’t have favourites.

    #453085
    aaronizneez
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    I would argue that there are non triers on a daily basis rather than ”weekly” as quoted above.

    Evidence??

    The backer is doomed to fail without
    genuine information.

    Untrue. Evidence??

    Anyway, as I politely asked on your other thread:

    What were a few of your favourite horses in recent seasons and why?

    I’d be interested to know.

    Mike

    Where is your evidence to base your ”untrue” remark.

    I like all horses, I don’t have favourites.

    If you don’t have favourites how come you moan about them losing all the time ?

    Woolfie I think you need help. You are showing the classic symptoms of someone who can’t control their gambling. You probably started out winning a decent amount and thought this is easy but now you’re losing consistently and blaming everyone and their auntie.

    You need to take a good long look in the mirror and have the courage to admit to yourself that you’re not cut out for this game

    You know it makes sense

    #453087
    betlarge
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    Where is your evidence to base your ”untrue” remark.

    I’ve won a passable amount of money betting this summer (admittedly not enough). I have no ‘information’ apart from what’s written in the formbook and shown on screen. Therefore your comment is untrue.

    I like all horses, I don’t have favourites.

    Everyone in racing has favourites.

    In an age of Frankel and Sprinter Sacre, Denman & Kauto Star, you’ve never posted anything that isn’t about your "inner circle, it’s all bent" rubbish.

    Name me one other thread that you’ve contributed to with an opinion? The reality is you don’t know anything about racing.

    Absolutely nothing.

    Mike

    #453100
    Woolf121
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    I like all horses, I don’t have favourites.

    If you don’t have favourites how come you moan about them losing all the time ?

    Woolfie I think you need help. You are showing the classic symptoms of someone who can’t control their gambling. You probably started out winning a decent amount and thought this is easy but now you’re losing consistently and blaming everyone and their auntie.

    You need to take a good long look in the mirror and have the courage to admit to yourself that you’re not cut out for this game

    You know it makes sense

    Horses are not corrupt. They pretty much comply with what humans ask of them. Frequently they are not asked for a lot.

    Are you a psychiatrist? Part time maybe.

    #453104
    Gingertipster
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    Interesting comments from respectable sources re Non Triers.

    "Non-triers are rarely picked up by the racecourse stewards… who seem blind to such things.’’ Timeform.

    "There are plenty on a weekly basis that we suspect aren’t running on their merits, but then there’s nothing new in that," Simon Walker head of editorial, Timeform.

    David Cleary, a long-serving race analyst and former editor of Chasers & Hurdlers, is more worried about "horses of established merit who have clear chances on form and yet who apparently underperform without any valid explanation offered". He feels there are "several" cases each week. Asked if stewards are doing enough to seek explanations when this happens, Cleary says: "I don’t think they are but that seems to come down from the BHA. I think there are people on the BHA side who are aware of what is going on but there needs to be a will to tackle this thing."

    Some within racing quietly agree with trainer Barry Hills, reported to have said, on retiring from the sport last year: "Don’t police it too much – it wants a bit of skulduggery".

    You’ve wanted to portray us as saying there is no skulduggery Woolfie. Where as (as Mike has said on another thread) nobody has actually said that. I could’ve told you two horses I saw with my own eyes when going racing this flat season – who I thought stewards should have held enquiries. Both went on (although not immediately) to win big handicaps.

    Field Of Dream on 23rd May 3:10 Goodwood, unplaced: Blinkers left off, drifted from Early Price, Kirby content to be dropped out lengths behind the rest in a race not run at an overly strong pace. Giving the horse an enormous amount to do, making some ground up late. Probably never have won the race, but point is he’d never been given the chance to. Was it just a poor ride?
    Dropped 2 lbs in the handicap to a mark 1 lb less than when successful in a big 7f handicap in 2012. Next two starts: Blinkers back on, 6th in Hunt Cup at Royal Ascot (1m), won Bunbury Cup at Newmarket (7f).

    Just a day later after Field Of Dream caught my eye…
    Wentworth on 24th May 4:20 Goodwood, 3rd: Weak in betting, Held up and seemingly repeatedly denied a run. Though it did not seem to me as if Hughes was at his most vigorous or actually looking to find a way through like he often can. Arguably, had he been able to get a clear run Wentworth would’ve gone up more than the 2 lbs for the Brittania Handicap at Royal Ascot, 4th. Then 3rd in a valuable Sandown handicap, upped a further 4 lbs. Upped 1 more lb before winning the Betfred Mile Handicap at Goodwood. The earlier Goodwood race had no bearing on the win, he’d certainly been trying hard to win at Ascot and Sandown… But it did ensure Wentworth only went up 2 lbs to have a favourite’s chance at Royal Ascot.

    In both cases I am not saying there was any skulduggery Woolfie, but do believe it should have been looked in to.

    Daily? No.
    Weekly? IMO Not every week, but yes, most.
    But how many horses run in a whole week of racing?
    You make out it is impossible for punters to make a profit from studying form due to the amount of skulduggery Woolfie. That is far from the case.

    And if you want a hand in spotting the skulduggery, why not buy a good form book? I hear Timeform is very good. :wink:

    value is everything
    #453106
    aaronizneez
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    Horses are not corrupt.

    Oh I dunno, that Al Capone was a bit suspect

    What’s your favourite colour?

    If you were a tree what wood you be?

    Do you check the results on the Sporting Life website by gradually going from right to left revealing a bit at a time?

    If there are two horses that start at 8/1 and you have bet one of them is it usually the case that the other one wins?

    #453109
    MarkTT
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    There are non triers every day. I’d argue that Hansupfordetroit was today at Newton Abbot. Wins over 2m6f so you drop it back to 2 miles on that easy track ?

    There are also those Prescott type horses which run over 7 furlongs before stepping up to 1m3f ( for example ) and win. Were they running over 7 furlongs on merit ?

    I understand why this happens but i’d like to know why the stewards will ban certain jockeys for not riding out when they finish 6th but let other worse misdemeanours pass without a single question

    A trainer says a horse won because it preferred the better ground and the next time you see it there are puddles everywhere.

    #453130
    betlarge
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    There are non triers every day. I’d argue that Hansupfordetroit was today at Newton Abbot. Wins over 2m6f so you drop it back to 2 miles on that easy track ?

    There are also those Prescott type horses which run over 7 furlongs before stepping up to 1m3f ( for example ) and win. Were they running over 7 furlongs on merit ?

    I understand why this happens but i’d like to know why the stewards will ban certain jockeys for not riding out when they finish 6th but let other worse misdemeanours pass without a single question

    A trainer says a horse won because it preferred the better ground and the next time you see it there are puddles everywhere.

    Hansupfordetroit is a bizarre choice – 12/1, first run in the UK, first run for four months and was in touch when it unseated rider 5 out :?:

    On the wider point of horses running at unsuitable courses, distances, goings etc you are substantively correct. But that doesn’t make them

    non-triers

    . It’s a bit like dropping Mo Farah into a 200m final. He’s never going to win but that doesn’t mean he’s not

    trying

    to. As you rightly say, that sort of thing happens many times every day – it’s why we have form books.

    If a horse were only ever campaigned at his optimum conditions (and very often those are changeable as he ages and are not clear at all even by the end of his career) he would probably only run twice a season!

    Far more pernicious are horses that are just never put in to a race. Using the course as an exercise gallop in effect.

    As for trainers – just ignore everything they say. They are by definition a vested interest and are thus incapable of rationally assessing a horse’s past form and future prospects (see football managers’ match analyses for further details).

    Mike

    #453137
    MarkTT
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    There are non triers every day. I’d argue that Hansupfordetroit was today at Newton Abbot. Wins over 2m6f so you drop it back to 2 miles on that easy track ?

    There are also those Prescott type horses which run over 7 furlongs before stepping up to 1m3f ( for example ) and win. Were they running over 7 furlongs on merit ?

    I understand why this happens but i’d like to know why the stewards will ban certain jockeys for not riding out when they finish 6th but let other worse misdemeanours pass without a single question

    A trainer says a horse won because it preferred the better ground and the next time you see it there are puddles everywhere.

    1 ) On the wider point of horses running at unsuitable courses, distances, goings etc you are substantively correct. But that doesn’t make them

    non-triers

    . It’s a bit like dropping Mo Farah into a 200m final. He’s never going to win but that doesn’t mean he’s not

    trying

    to. As you rightly say, that sort of thing happens many times every day – it’s why we have form books.

    2 ) Far more pernicious are horses that are just never put in to a race. Using the course as an exercise gallop in effect.

    Mike

    Points i’ve marked 1 and 2 are the same in many, many races.

    However, a horse running over it’s optimum trip yet not put in the race is more noticeable ( the other examples often require hindsight )
    I can understand why this happens though – the handicapper. The worst case i’ve seen was a few years ago when a plater was put up more than twenty pounds because of one freak win in a terrible race. Where do connections go after that ?
    Trainers are running horses down the field to reduce their handicap mark, often a genuine problem, often not.

    The latter i would use for something like Fonthill Road. Raced in the Ayr Gold Cup of 2005 and " always in touch " it finished second by a short head off 100. Raced in early 2006 off 103 and was never there to win ( mid div / always in the rear / always in the rear/ always behind ) Had been dropped several pounds by September and won the 2006 Ayr Gold Cup off 97 " close up "

    Now as a punter it’s within our " remit " to look out for these.

    #453150

    IanDavies
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    Of all the races I’ve watched this year, only once have I been unhappy on integrity grounds with a losing bet after the race.

    So either the game’s got straighter or I’ve got better at identifying triers beforehand. :D

    #26642
    Woolf121
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    Why don’t we agree to boycott racing for a while?

    We all know it’s excrement, non triers, doped runners, dodgy jockeys, bent trainers.

    Most runners are performing 20% below their best in the majority of races.

    Let’s wait for the BHA to issue a few bans, warnings etc.

    No one is making a penny from racing least of all the anoraks with their pathetic form books.

    Of course if you’re party to good info, carry on regardless.

    #489344
    Bachelors Hall
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    If you’ve been following my previews on the Juvenile thread, you’ll have picked up on my UK tips as follows;-

    12/6 Gimme Five 1. 2/1
    20/6 Goodbye Dancer 1. 10/3
    13/7 Goodbye Dancer 1. 15/8
    19/7 Vosne Romanee 2. 2/1
    13/8 Full Day 1. 9/4
    26/8 Vosne Romanee 1. 10/11
    28/8 Mr Gallivanter 1. 5/4

    All proofed and whatnot. Plus, I’m quite sure that most of the prices were bigger in the morning before the market adjusted itself appropriately.

    The closest thing I have to inside information is that I once told Emma Lavelle that Kentford Grey Lady is the most beautiful horse in training and she (Emma) said thank you.

    Good luck on your crusade though…

    #489345
    Woolf121
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    Well done, 7 winners between mid June and the end of August. And I though I was struggling.

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