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Thanks Simon.
Maybe I wasn’t clear. This is a paradise island and those peddling win single spot bets have long since been thrown in jail, so the prices for finishing second have their own market and aren’t made in reference to any win odds.
Never mind.
An excellent and informative set of replies, many thanks
With regard to the query I posed, this part of your reply is particularly noteworthy:
It appears that ways of calculating timefigures, and their importance in guiding form ratings, has changed since the early years. Timeform is more sceptical about one-off performances of apparent superlative merit nowadays, and that is reflected in the above. Timeform is also a lot more clued-up about how pace affects overall time than it once was (largely because the technology now exists to measure such things regularly). Frankel might never have run a time in the 140s, but Timeform was confident he COULD from an early stage, and a number of his runs were backed up by sectionals in line with his ultimate 147 form rating
To the initiated it should come as no surprise that the methods utilised to compile robust Timefigures remain ‘a work in progress’ and that they are not the ultimate sealed approval or blackballed disapproval of the Form Ratings (also a healthy work in progress) that the unitiated perhaps believe them to be. Timefigures may help render the form ratings less subjective but they themselves are not – and probably never can be – wholly objective
Who needs London when you have the fine city of Sheffield on your doorstep
Have you had a wander up Kinder Scout yet? Or strolled from Hathersage to Stanage Edge? Or enjoyed afternoon tea on the banks of the Derwent in Matlock? Or got pissed at the Bakewell Show?
Yep, Derbyshire and the Peak District, you fortunate fellow; and Prufrock would have loved it I’m sure
If I ever do get up Kinder Scout it will be wheezing, not wandering! Hathersage and environs a regular stamping ground. I do love it round here, but the last thing of note to occur was the Romans leaving nearly two millennia ago: I like a bit more stimulation at times!
Bumpy ride
Drone in a previous slipper post
suggested a lot of us are feeling
our bones in here and many have
locked their knuckle dusters
in moth drawers but can still
irritate by waving a walking stickYes fascinating replies Pru and
many thanks. Your views
on forums was my bumpy ride and being
reminded of the Betfair trolls.When you left the Ultimate forum on
a matter of principle it was a big moment
and Ray took in a large intake of breath
and later a gulp. I do not think he saw it coming.
He seemed pretty low afterwards. For any
admin an escapee is always bad for business,
but an ultimate display of power for the poster.There have been a few on here and for you cronologiaclly
Escorial
– personal disagreements with Daylight
Kathy
– bone picked with Daylight – she forced his hand
Keith the Teeth
– too boring in the lounge
Pewter
– a protest against the new breed posters who were highjacking threads (myself and Balance) He left with his finger pointing
Ian Davies
– in protest against lack of sanction
against another poster. He self obliterated
forcing Daylight’s handRazeen
– In protest aginst what he considered
the idiocy of the word association gang. He picked
on Matron unfairly, one of the WA gang, and was immediately bannedJim JTS
– felt the forum was going downhill but it was possibly his diminishing influence after Daylight sadly passed away. His large red – handed avatar revisited a couple of times
to protest and then became folklore like the hairy hand.Reet hard
– dissafection with the forum and felt he was
unfairly an admin target.Pinza
comes in another list
Although sad occasions theses were fascinating battles and caused huge debate and energy.
It would take me too long to comment on all of these exits and deaths, but will state that I found your exit from Ultimate a very honourable plank to walk.
I feel I have written enough for the mo.. still wanted to write more and may after visiting the fridge.
I did forget
Gerald
who hated the new friends option.
Pru as far as racing being s profitable pastime – even that might be far off. Think back to the early fifties when the high point in a man’s day was being served meat and two veg by a woman with red hands and often a cloth wrapped around curlers as she said – " You’re late – I have had a hard day, and I’m going to bed ".
Admittedly in those early days you only had radio but a million people a week went to watch the dogs and many used to say they ran faster at Catford
. What is the situation now ? Well all we have at the dog tracks now are cameras and cameras and cameras. So a game can go really bad given a major shift in interest and disaffection to other sports or interestsThis sort of erosion is starting in betting shops with the introduction of WMD’s and Mickey Mouse seen daily riding on a virtual horse. This may be the thin end of the wedge, but possibly not, horse racing does have a huge history – lets hope that saves it – and it doesn’t become that history.
Must have been fun, initially at the Sportsman – I always felt its name was its weakness, but then again what do I know
Actions speak louder than words and having a go at something that has risk is often better than mulling about what might have been so your stint there deserves credit.
It has been nice to see some of the old names come back her. Obviously yourself Simon, but also Ian Davies, Alan Potts, Rory, and Graysoncolumn have ghosted back for a bit of banter.
Anyway, thanks again for a very interesting and entertaining set of answers. I am stuck here in this godforsaken
citi
just a boy in old man’s clothes who hasn’t got the energy to leave.
Other ghosts
Grasshopper
Disliked the bells, whistles and hoopla of the new red TRF, and the ingratiating desire for a seat at high table within BHA Towers
Maxilon5
Last seen with handfuls of hair self-immolating on the fibresand at Southwell: he tried pro-punting you see
Not wishing to be considered a hijacker
as we are here at the tail end of this
remarkable thread to bear witness to
Simon’s remarkable contribution here
butThank you Drone for correcting my omission
of Grasshopper who would be in the Escorial
class and was a very big name. Possibly
Grasshopper if you are reading this you
might pop in for a friendly or otherwisse,
it’s so long since I had a scoop
We cannot class Maxilon 5 as a defector,
again Max if you are about, surely he
just slipped away, but was a marvelous
contributor who burned the midnight oil,
but with more passion than many of us.Paul Ostermeyer is off and for the same reasons
as Barry Dennis (gissus a clue Glenn .. Denissspeak)
to retire.I think those enjoying racing to the ultimate
possibly have a job in the industry and
as Pru puts it a profitable pastime.Some of the pros went back into finance markets
when Betfair got the profit bug. To keep going
in horse racing needs a lot of time – finance
less so in my opinion, so a natural alternative
I suggest, and one that takes my concentration
at the moment for what little time I have,
although I haven’t ruled out a return
to the midnight oil
My attention has been drawn to
the fact I have been a little over
zealous in overdoing the subject
of defectors on this fine thread.In normal fashion Q&A would naturally
expire with comments and anecdotes
relating to the given answers and
often an expression of thanksMy apologies to Simon and others
for distracting this thread away
from its intended and natural course.( I have had to edit and re-write my apology
I even got that wrong )Being selected for Q&A is very much like
being knighted on TRF and those who
have done it are in a select band of
people who have a recognised talent
or experience.I certainly would not put you in a time straight-jacket,
Simon, as I remember you writing and commenting on many
subjects in the horse racing dictionary. On a lighter note
they do say that time passes slower in the country, and it
would be interesting if fact of you living in the Peak District has any effect on your research. Tennyson wrote the Light Brigade in a country setting on the Isle of Wight so it may
aid thinking processes and ideas and inspiration to be in a tranquil setting. I suppose where people feel most comfortable may be the right answer. I have a country mouse head dressed in town mouse clothesI did a lot of my time work in the late nineties. I found my
niche in betting on the younger horses that I rated as improvers at that time. I think in those days the handicappers may have been easier on them as I hit then on a veritable cash cow. I have never used speed alone as a factor in my past betting and I wonder if this could ever be successfully employed ?The 5-minute riverside walk to the end of the field in front of the house and back is perfect for cogitation
and the banishing of occasional dark thoughts But I would not claim to have scaled Tennyson-like heights. I would say that sectional analysis, in conjunction with conventional form and time analysis, has the biggest potential edge I have ever come across in racing, not least because so many of the racing public just don’t get it. Best if it stays that way, really.
Have we ever met, gamble? An Ultimate Betting Forum occasion, perhaps? My memory is not what it was, however.
THE EDGE
I would say that sectional analysis, in conjunction with conventional form and time analysis, has the biggest potential edge I have ever come across in racing, not least because so many of the racing public just don’t get it. Best if it stays that way, really.
So pleased Simon you left this gem with us and this to my mind crystallises your enthusiasm for racing and all the study you have done. Forget Tennyson ! Six hundred men would much rather be charging at these three dancing suns set on the edge of hope, than beady eyed russian cannon and a inglorious forgotten death and the possibility a false statistic on Pravda
As far as meeting you, no I have only met Glenn and Sky. It could be arranged I am located mostly in the city
My favourite film is Psycho and Wickerman would be in another in my list
Aplogies for the late edit but these Q&A demand a pitch of sobriety and are kept for millenia
.
That I would like very much, gamble. Though I might feel more reassured if you suddenly decided that your favourite films were Babe The Pig and Forrest Gump
You got to meet all sorts at those ultimate krone ups. I even met someone who claimed to know Pat NAYLOR on one trip. Didn’t believe a word of it of course….
Wickerman is a great film. I’ve always seen it as an allegorical work. I think Summerisle was modelled on Halifax and Edward Woodward’s fate was sealed after asking too many question of the win-single spot-betting inhabitants about part-wheels and boxes!
#theoldgods
Hi Simon, Do you not think that it would be in the interest of punters to not have sectional timings generally available. Last year I was all over Jezki for the Champion based on Sectionals, I doubt this would have been possible with sectionals analysed to death in the media. The previous quote is spot on regarding all models are flawed but some are useful. I would rather have a flawed but useful model than a perfect but less useful variation. It also seems a little hopeful of us to wish for sectionals when many clerks of the course cannot be bothered to remeasure distances after altering running rails. I will be up in the Peak area early summer, I will catch up with you for that pint.
Hi Simon, Do you not think that it would be in the interest of punters to not have sectional timings generally available. Last year I was all over Jezki for the Champion based on Sectionals, I doubt this would have been possible with sectionals analysed to death in the media. The previous quote is spot on regarding all models are flawed but some are useful. I would rather have a flawed but useful model than a perfect but less useful variation. It also seems a little hopeful of us to wish for sectionals when many clerks of the course cannot be bothered to remeasure distances after altering running rails. I will be up in the Peak area early summer, I will catch up with you for that pint.
One race, hardly irrevocable proof of their worth, particularly after the event and over jumps.
Best to keep them to yourself Olias and make as much money as possible while you can. It’s bad enough getting bets on with bookies as it is now, without everyone trying to get on the same horses based on sectionals.
who would be in the Escorial
But I would not claim to have scaled Tennyson-like heights. 
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