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There is more chance of pigs flying over Epsom than Manning being jocked off New Approach.
What price Manning being jocked off for Frankie?
If Rio De La Plata runs Frankie will ride. But Rio is not at his best on a soft surface. If it is on the soft side, wonder if they’ll withdraw Rio and switch Frankie to New Approach.
Mark
You are out of your mind
Yes, John, and nobody but Bolger and Weld have acted in this way for the English Derby, though I would suggest their Irishness leads you to defend rather than condemn (whatever the problems with the entry system may be).
I have ALOT of time for Lydia….she is generally top class….but there is well wide of the mark on a couple of occasions in her piece.
Firstly I think Bolger is an ass, and a particularly stubborn one. He gets an idea in his head and seems to enjoy it when other disagree as it only convinces him even more.
But this article was mentioned and discussed elsewhere with the following points mentioned by others…
When she critises Weld for not knowing what he had before the supplementary stage….did she mention the same thing about Stoute (took Kris Kin out of the Derby then back in again!) and O’Brien (Dylan Thomas went off as the stable outsider)…two of the leading trainers who did not know what they had up to and even after the Derby? Both horses had more chances to show this that a twice raced colt.
While Bolgers actions are rightly slammed, why tar the rest of the Irish trainers in the same way?
Why would Jim Bolger want Manning jocked off New Approach? He’s ridden him in all his races with a great deal of success. Yes you could argue he got the pace a bit wrong in the English Guineas, but IIRC back to his 2y-o days NA only set the pace because he didn’t want a sprint over 6 & 7 furlongs. Over 12f in a Classic he should have no such worries.
With people suggesting that it is in fact the fault of Sheikh Mohammed that Jim Bolger has had to reorganise New Approach’s schedule, it wouldn’t be the greatest shock to see further executive decisions made.
That said I don’t the Sheikh has had any influence on Bolger’s recent revelations, and as such the unshipping of Manning would be surprising.
Whatever Bolger is, he is not a stupid man. I am pretty sure when he sold his share of the horse to Darley that he got assurances (and not just words) about the racing career and path the horse takes.
I am pretty sure when he sold his share of the horse to Darley that he got assurances (and not just words) about the racing career and path the horse takes.
What are you saying Aidan then, that the Derby has always been on the agenda? If not, whether assurances exist or not, then they are clearly not worth the paper they are written on.
Why would Jim Bolger want Manning jocked off New Approach? He’s ridden him in all his races with a great deal of success. Yes you could argue he got the pace a bit wrong in the English Guineas, but IIRC back to his 2y-o days NA only set the pace because he didn’t want a sprint over 6 & 7 furlongs. Over 12f in a Classic he should have no such worries.
Frankie is a better jockey than whip happy Manning who panics in big races, thrashing his horses. Witness Dewhurst and 2000. Also did not go fast enough at Newmarket. Frankie has a better clock in his head.
If Frankie is available, I am sure Sheikh Mo will want his retained jockey to ride. And if Rio does not run am sure Frankie will expect to ride NA.
Apart from the the Dewhurst New Approach has front run. So racing prominently, or at least having a view of the front, may be important to his temperament.
Mark
Value Is EverythingMy take on it is that Bolger has been over-ruled by the horse’s principal owner(s) and forced to run it against his will. He should have kept his own counsel rather than spouting off in the manner he has about the race. He thoroughly deserves the berating he is now enjoying.
While it would be be hugely dissapointing for the boy if Manning was jocked off, were Rio De La Plata to be declared a N/R it would not be the greatest surprise in the world to see L.Dettori take the reins on New Approach come Saturday. Although perhaps Frankie would be man enough to rally against such a move, given that he’s now won his Derby, and bearing in mind how unpopular such a move would be in the weighing room and with the public?
I think Weld’s actions and words have been much more considered and measured than Bolgers and I don’t think punters could possibly feel they’d been misled at all by Weld, who has been pretty open throughout.
To summarise then, while I have a lot of time for New Approach, for whom I think a mile may have been too short this year, and really like the horse I’m afraid I won’t be cheering him on in the final furlong.
Yes, John, and nobody but Bolger and Weld have acted in this way for the English Derby, though I would suggest their Irishness leads you to defend rather than condemn (whatever the problems with the entry system may be).
LGR,
There are major problems with the entry system. Lydia Hislop states that it does not reflect well on Irish racing, which is unfair IMO. I did state earlier that Bolger’s decision was bizarre, however I think Weld has not acted in any way that would reflect badly on Irish racing.
Weld has not given the punters the run around as Hislop has suggested, he has been open about the participation of CC since the Derrinstown. So her reporting in this article misrepresents the facts and is quite bad journalism. Not once does she mention the problems that are fundamental to this issue which is the entry system. If anything, these snubs at the school disco are the fault of Derby organisers and not the trainers that can use the rules to their advantage, no matter what nationality they may be.
JohnJ
I’d be shocked to see Dettori on New Approach. He’s never had first call on any on Princess Haya’s horses before. The ride has always gone to the stable jockey. Even after purchasing Dandy Man mid way through last year Pat Shanahan kept the ride at Dettori only got jocked up once the horse had been transferred to Suroor.
Carvills,
My point is this,
At the time Bolger made those comments New Approach had run well enough on good-firm as a two year old. In Jim Bolger’s mind the horse acted on any going, so he was aimed at the Irish Derby. There was no way he would run at Epsom.
However, in the Irish Guineas he palpably did not act on firm. So that changes things and nothing said before that race should be taken in to account.
There is now no point in waiting for the Irish Derby where it could be firm again, when Epsom is softer than good.
It now makes perfect sense to run in the English Derby.Mark
You are again spectacularly missing the point.
I don’t dispute the logic of running in the race, nor do I dispute the owner and trainer’s right to run in a race they’ve paid to enter.
What I and others object to is a trainer completely ruling out the possibility of running in a race with ante-post betting one day only to do a complete about-face within a few days. Imagine if Paul Nicholls and Harry Findlay had said Denman had been left in the National "by mistake" keeping the weights down, that he definitely wouldn’t run, then said he was a runner a few days later- it’s unthinkable and should be just as unthinkable in this situation.To blame the entry conditions is similarly obtuse.
When did Bolger rule out the Derby? Was it before the Irish Guineas or after?
May be I missed it.Mark
Value Is EverythingI’m not sure if you’re on a wind-up mate but look throught the Post cuttings library if you need your memory refreshed.
Firefox
You wrote Salse, Weld has won a stack of classics, but numbers are pretty meaningless when you have failed to win the most important one, Epsom’s Derby, and also never come close to winning an Arc or a King George. Whether you like it or not, winning these three races are still what all trainers most covet. I am not saying Weld is a bad trainer, obviously he is a very good one, but when Oxx has plundered Europe’s 3 top prizes, that for me puts him ahead of Weld.
Does that mean in NH racing you would have Toby Balding ahead of Nicky Henderson, Martin Pipe & Paul Nicholls ?
Toby after all has won both Champion Hurdle & Gold Cup whereas the others have only one either one. Throw in the Grand National and he’s streets ahead.
After going back to read exactly what Jim Bolger said and when he said it, I now consider what happened as this….
At the start of the season Jim Bolger was worried about how New Approach would cope with the preliminaries at Epsom. Whether his temperament will stand it. However, if Bolger came out and said this outright he would risk damaging the horses stud career. With breeders unwilling to use a horse with temperament problems. Remember how Aiden said George Washington had a big ego, well horses don’t have egos they have temperament. I think most connections do not tell the whole truth when it comes to their horse’s temperament, especially stallion prospects.
The decision was made not to go to Epsom with Bolger making all sorts of excuses why he would not run.
As a two year old New Approach ran well on good-firm, before improving in the Dewhurst on a soft surface (never ran on firm). So Bolger believed the horse acted on any going.
But in the Irish Guineas NA ran with his head to one side and below form, obviously hating the firm going. So it was now evident New Approach would not run on firm again, and Bolger said if it came up firm in the Irish Derby he would miss the race.
The English Derby is usually run on a firm surface too, so he reiterated comments that he will not go to Epsom. However, when it was clear Epsom would be good or softer, it became a safe alternative. Why wait for the Irish version if that could be firm? When Epsom will have perfect ground.
New Approach has not shown the same quirks in either race this term that he showed as a two year old. It seems his temperament has improved. So there is now no real reason to avoid Epsom.
With Bolger having a more attacking policy with his best horses than most other trainers, (racing them more often) it is not unusual for him to run in two races close together. Bolger is never afraid to change plans. Finscael Beo surprised people when turning up at Longchamp for the French Guineas before going for the Irish version. Lush Lashes ran in the Musidora, not long after the Guineas.In making those excuses why New Approach would not run, Bolger did mislead the betting public. But only by (probably) changing the reason for New Approach not running. At the time he had no intention running the horse. However circumstances change.
I am fairly sure it was not an error keeping the horse in the race. Whether it was on Sheikh Mohammed’s insistence, keeping all options open, just in case a minor injury ruled him out of the Irish Guineas, whatever. Even at that point I still do not believe Bolger had any intention running.
With Bolger’s record and changing circumstances, I do not believe it that surprising New Approach runs in the Derby, even allowing for what he said.
Mark
Value Is Everything
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