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You’re absolutely right Grimes.
I have seen the light, ’twas so bright it blinded me of my ill ways and guided me down the path of righteousness. I now walk hand in hand with our messenger, our leader… the merciful Mohammed, peace be upon him. I’m now enslaved and owned by God and I’ve never felt so free, you’re on the wrong side. Convert to Islam and you’ll have 72 virgins when you die. Please join us Grimes, I’d hate to see you spend eternity in hellfire.
I’m off, to cut off my right arm for stealing creme eggs when I was twelve.
‘He who laughs last….’, baley.
Hey – JBale! So you’ve turned Muslim eh?
Well, so have I – but what I want to know is are you a Shia or a Sunni?
If it’s the wrong type of Muzzie, I reserve the right to kick the living daylights out of you before beheading you and all your tribe – all in the name of the "religion of peace" you understand. No hard feelings dontcha know!
That’s what is so great about "believing" and "faith" in whatever god you choose. It justifies just about any act of evil. (Anyway, musn’t ramble, got to go trim my new beard and sign-up for a New Year jihad somewhere (quite fancy Syria.)) Oh – and must tell the wife to put the ALdi shopping bag over her head until I can buy a proper Mrs Muzzie outfit.How is it, baley, that you can believe that inanimate matter can be be of a higher order than mind, that something as ‘dirt’ basic as inanimate matter could produce something higher than it by an unbridgeable order of magnitude.
An amoeba, nay a blade of grass, a lichen, is of an almost infinitely higher order than any raw inanimate matter. How could nothing turn itself into everything in the first place. For all the atheists’ vaunted, but utterly risible, intellectual prowess, they have not been able to produce even the most primitive, plant life.
The fact is that secular fundamentalism is a religion, and if the facts don’t fit, as they never seem to, certainly where putative Evolution is concerned, why they just invoke their fabled ‘promissory note’; one day, it will be better understood!’
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How is it, baley, that you can believe that inanimate matter can be be of a higher order than mind, that something as ‘dirt’ basic as inanimate matter could produce something higher than it by an unbridgeable order of magnitude.
An amoeba, nay a blade of grass, a lichen, is of an almost infinitely higher order than any raw inanimate matter. How could nothing turn itself into everything in the first place. For all the atheists’ vaunted, but utterly risible, intellectual prowess, they have not been able to produce even the most primitive, plant life.
The fact is that secular fundamentalism is a religion, and if the facts don’t fit, as they never seem to, certainly where putative Evolution is concerned, why they just invoke their fabled ‘promissory note’; one day, it will be better understood!’
Sorry for responding to Baley’s post but thought I have something to add (though I highly doubt you will agree with me – but that’s the whole point in debate!)
I believe, as an agnostic (closer to atheism), that nothing is ‘meant to be’, and this is where religious people miss the trick. Nothing has to be here, the crazy tall trees, the blue sky, the rain that causes certain racecourses to flood! It’s all by chance, all because of a random set of events over billions of years. If just one or two of those events hadn’t happened then we probably wouldn’t be here typing away having this discussion.
This is why, like you said
"inanimate matter can be be of a higher order than mind"
– because mind is no better than anything else, and nor is inanimate matter. There is no ‘better’ or ‘higher level’ because there is no creator to establish this level. Any ‘level’ we believe there to be has been solely created in the human mind.
You mention
"An amoeba, nay a blade of grass, a lichen, is of an almost infinitely higher order than any raw inanimate matter."
This simply isn’t the case, There may well be "order" in terms of the universe’s physical laws, but there is no "order" in the hierarchy of matter or particles (no matter how advanced they might be). We, as living animals, are no better or greater, or more deserving to be here than a speck of dust on the end of your shoe.
How is it, baley, that you can believe that inanimate matter can be be of a higher order than mind, that something as ‘dirt’ basic as inanimate matter could produce something higher than it by an unbridgeable order of magnitude.
An amoeba, nay a blade of grass, a lichen, is of an almost infinitely higher order than any raw inanimate matter. How could nothing turn itself into everything in the first place. For all the atheists’ vaunted, but utterly risible, intellectual prowess, they have not been able to produce even the most primitive, plant life.
The fact is that secular fundamentalism is a religion, and if the facts don’t fit, as they never seem to, certainly where putative Evolution is concerned, why they just invoke their fabled ‘promissory note’; one day, it will be better understood!’
Sorry for responding to Baley’s post but thought I have something to add (though I highly doubt you will agree with me – but that’s the whole point in debate!)
I believe, as an agnostic (closer to atheism), that nothing is ‘meant to be’, and this is where religious people miss the trick. Nothing has to be here, the crazy tall trees, the blue sky, the rain that causes certain racecourses to flood! It’s all by chance, all because of a random set of events over billions of years. If just one or two of those events hadn’t happened then we probably wouldn’t be here typing away having this discussion.
This is why, like you said
"inanimate matter can be be of a higher order than mind"
– because mind is no better than anything else, and nor is inanimate matter. There is no ‘better’ or ‘higher level’ because there is no creator to establish this level. Any ‘level’ we believe there to be has been solely created in the human mind.
You mention
"An amoeba, nay a blade of grass, a lichen, is of an almost infinitely higher order than any raw inanimate matter."
This simply isn’t the case, There may well be "order" in terms of the universe’s physical laws, but there is no "order" in the hierarchy of matter or particles (no matter how advanced they might be). We, as living animals, are no better or greater, or more deserving to be here than a speck of dust on the end of your shoe.
Can’t argue with you, BHison2. Too far apart to be worthwhile. But how you can believe all that takes my breath away. I’ll just ask you this question:
On what basis do you contend that mind is no better than anything else?
It certainly isn’t science, because science is no nearer to ‘getting a handle’ on mind than it ever had, despite the august titles they give their fields of research. And as for human beings being no better than a speck of dust on the end of my shoe…! Is that what you think of your mother, father, children? Elephants have more sense. They mourn their dead.
You’ve just wiped out all justification for an objective of morality. It’s whatever each individual thinks. Right? So no outrage that Hitler or Stalin or the Ripper or Brady and Hindle perpetrated, is worse than any other action. I don’t think so.
Here is a very convincing NDE of the ‘dark side’, by a former, quite senior, voodoo practitioner.
It starts at 27.02, although some of the others are good, too.
Here is another very convincing, in a way, quite wrily humorous account of an NDE, as they often are.
I love the moment when they explode and say they don’t want to go back! Especially, when it’s a particularly solid kind of character like this man.
Some more goodies:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZ4HtPLJkmE
(Sounds poor on this one, to begin with, but it seems to get better. It’s apparently, a recording of a recording).https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OuLMVzGMpc0
(Wonderful biblical simplicity about this one)Another article with more info on one of the YouTube NDE videos.
Here’s another corker, baley. He’s an American marine. Very long-winded, but if you can watch until about 3/4 of the way through the video, it then really takes off.
The most compelling thing about these, and usually indicative of their brilliance is the body-language of the person, as they narrate their experience. This is no exception. Shawn, the lad, gets very emotional quite suddenly, when he’s told by the angel who’s come to his rescue that his name is Michael, and Shawn realises it’s Michael the Archangel, in person, the leader of God’s army. It’s pretty amusing when Shawn describes Michael’s beauty!
Here’s another corker! The bloke is a bit long-winded, although he comes across as all the more sincere.
However, in his account of the actual experience, the way he suddenly comes to life, at his own recollection of the humour of the particular situation, is very amusing.
Like the others, he oozes honesty and sincerity out of every pore. Very compelling.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LfSYoXayGXU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6GTzTvzlF0
NB
Patrick begins his description of his visit to heaven, or, rather, I believe, a kind of ante-room to heaven – judging from other persuasive NDE accounts, and the first of two very funny incidents occurs.
Thought you’d got rid of me, Baley? I’ve had to stop the racing but I knew you’d miss my NDE video-clips, so here’s another first rate one :
It’s in German with English subtitles, but though I don’t know German, I find it easier to follow the subtitles with the sound on :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aOuSGErXqAc
After a head-on car accident with a truck (his car was stationary) in Siberia, the padre was clinically dead for five hours and then had five internal organs removed.
During his recovery in hospital, his wife was told by the surgeon not to expect him to live, with so many internal organs removed. So, he’s a walking miracle, as he should be dead, a point reiterated to him by a doctor at one of the most prestigious hospitals in Russia, not open to the general public.
These two articles are not NDE’s, but both are fascinating, and the one about the miracles that Jack Traynor underwent is hilarious in parts.
When I was about to go into theatre for my kidney transplant I saw my Mother who is deceased standing at the end of the bed in a ghost like form telling me not to worry and to be brave. I couldn’t say whether or not this was real or a figment of my imagination with the sleepy juice being put into me but I can remember being so happy and warm inside which wasn’t a bad feeling considering they were about to cut me up.
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Well, so have I – but what I want to know is are you a Shia or a Sunni?
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