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Any of you produce your best at work with a dose of the flu? I didn’t think so. Judging the ability or otherwise of Sir Percy based on yesterday’s events is flawed and largely unfair.
Problem is his best to date is around 121-124!! People seem to forget that!!
Would you not be worried about the firm ground races next year? I think if he does stay in training next year is his runs will be few and far between.<br>
Quote: from Bulwark on 3:58 pm on Oct. 14, 2006[br]What a disgrace, so much for him Tregoning saying he was in better shape than before epsom, the lying git.
P#ss Poor!<br>
What a churlish post.
Aidan, I really don’t know.
I have expressed a theory on here a couple of times, (to general bemusement), that the horse is actually better on faster ground. Maybe not a rock hard Bath style surface, but firmer than is generally perceived.
The prevailing concensus – and Tregoning himself – suggests the opposite. So, I don’t know.
I can’t see the point in them retiring him, Aidan. I think they have no choice but to try to bring him back, though, as you say, his sightings will be sadly rare.
As for Sir Percy….what comes round, goes round. He got all the luck last year against Horatio, and now, people see that Sir Percy is nothing like everyone expected
More sneering. what a poor thread this is
Sometimes wonder if this is not totally unconnectd to the fact that SP comes from what might be regarded as a posh english stable….
Sometimes wonder if this is not totally unconnectd to the fact that SP comes from what might be regarded as a posh english stable….
I think it’s more to do with some people proclaiming him a wonder horse when both his G1 victories were "unconvincing".
This scepticism is directed to a lot of horses like that, so looking for conspiracy theories is probably a mistake.<br> <br>Steve
Clivex
I find your assertion rather insulting that you believe my opinion of Sir Percy is based on who owns and trains him and how many silver spoons they were born with in their mouth.
As Steve says, my hostitility (if you can call it that) towards Sir Percy stems from the fact that he was well and truly put in his place by the best three year old colt in the Guineas. He then won a Derby which still looks dodgy form. I fully acknowledge he did well to win that day the way the race was run but a short-head verdict over Dragon Dancer is a long way short of the form required to gain him access to the pantheon of greats.
As I’ve said on another thread, I wouldn’t argue that Sir Percy didn’t give his running yesterday, but Olympian Odyssey did, which shows that the form of the Guineas is pretty reliable. The case for Sir Percy being a 130 horse is centered around the subsequent form of Araafa and Dylan Thomas as the infirm Sir Percy has stood in his box. Trouble is, it fails to take into account that thse two rivals have probably simply improved past him.
DJ
I am sorry, but you are reading the form negatively. Form and statistics can all be interpreted in many ways.
Sir Percy got within three lengths of a peak form George Washington over a distance probably four furlongs short of his best.  It was a sterling performance and extremely meritworthy in hindsight.
He then beat subsequent Irish Derby and Irish Champion Stakes winner Dylan Thomas in the Derby displaying a rare turn of foot from a completely unpromising position. People’s continued use of  Dragon Dancer to denigrate SP in this context is quite clever. Can you use DT in a similar context to achieve the same goal? I don’t think so.
If DT (and Araafa) improved, then there is no reason whatsoever to suggest that an injury free SP would not have made quantatively similar improvement. It’s conjecture on both sides.
We simply do not know conclusively and my contention is that yesterday proves nothing except unwell horses do not win horse races.
DJ you cant accurantly judge a horse’s merit on the running of another. Where Olympian Oddysey finishes doesn’t neccessarily mean a thing regarding Sir Percy’s level. If that was the case you could argue that Caradak is better than George Washington on Goodwood running.
As for using his 2000 Guineas defeat as an argument, Sir Percy is a horse that stays 1 1/2 miles, finishing second in a guineas is testiment to his quality not a slur on it. You’d expect SP to beat Geoerge Washington over a mile and a half wouldn’t you?
For whatever reason Sir Percy didn’t perform yesterday. He travelled but went out like a light, something quite clearly wasn’t right.
Next season? I worry about him with regards to his soundness on fast ground. He’s not had an uninterupted preparation for any race this season. His very best form is on fastish ground, he’s going to have seriously problems if he can’t run on that surface.
It’s a shame but horses aren’t machines and things like this happen in racing.
Maxilon
The key point is that Sir Percy wasn’t injury free and has to show he has improved. As of yet he hasn’t shown this. In my opinion his Dewhurst effort, his Guineas second and the Derby form all look of similar merit, that is arouns the 121/123 mark.
Interesting that you are now saying 12f is Sir Percy’s best trip. Not necessarily suggesting it was you that said it, but in the lead up to Saturday I was led to believe that 10f was his optimum trip.
Quote: from davidjohnson on 2:00 pm on Oct. 15, 2006[br]Maxilon
The key point is that Sir Percy wasn’t injury free and has to show he has improved. As of yet he hasn’t shown this. In my opinion his Dewhurst effort, his Guineas second and the Derby form all look of similar merit, that is arouns the 121/123 mark.
Interesting that you are now saying 12f is Sir Percy’s best trip. Not necessarily suggesting it was you that said it, but in the lead up to Saturday I was led to believe that 10f was his optimum trip.
<br>Some of us have always believed that twelve furlongs was Sir Percy’s optimum trip.
Trouble is, it fails to take into account that thse two rivals have probably simply improved past him.
I wouldn’t say that DT has "improved past" SP. I wold suggest he was already better than him by the time of the Derby but the way the Epson race was run didn’t allow him to show that.
People’s continued use of Dragon Dancer to denigrate SP in this context is quite clever. Can you use DT in a similar context to achieve the same goal? I don’t think so.
I can.
The fact that DD was so close to DT was a sign that the form of the Derby doesn’t mean much.
Will that do?
Steve
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Quote: from stevedvg on 2:04 pm on Oct. 15, 2006[br]Trouble is, it fails to take into account that thse two rivals have probably simply improved past him.
I wouldn’t say that DT has "improved past" SP. I wold suggest he was already better than him by the time of the Derby but the way the Epson race was run didn’t allow him to show that.
People’s continued use of  Dragon Dancer to denigrate SP in this context is quite clever. Can you use DT in a similar context to achieve the same goal? I don’t think so.
I can.
The fact that DD was so close to DT was a sign that the form of the Derby doesn’t mean much.
Will that do?
Steve
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There’s no evidence that any horse has improved past Sir Percy other than SP’s Champion Stakes run and I don’t think even his most ardent critic will believe that to be his true running.
I accept that we just don’t know what Sir Percy’s true ability is, I fear we may never know due to his general unsoundness.
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