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Same amount of evidence you have for Kauto Star jumping ‘absolutely fine’ then, Flash i.e bugger all.
Just watch the race mate then tell me where he jumped badly on the first circuit. He didn’t jump any worse than anything else.
I admit I don’t have the sectional times but that doesn’t mean the injection of pace didn’t happen it just means I don’t have the means to prove it. Hopefully someone on here does have those means and will be able to supply the "evidence".
You’re watching a different race from me, Flash.
It is abundantly clear to me that Kauto Star is jumping nowhere near as fluently as Denman in the Gold Cup, or as fluently as he did at Kempton and Ascot earlier in the season.
He might not have been making calamitous errors, but he was definitely not jumping as he can do. Despite whacking the odd one every now and then last season, Kauto Star is essentially a very fluent lepper – and he was anything but fluent in the Gold Cup…………….the word I would us is ‘sticky’.
This is not to excuse Kauto Star’s defeat, but it seems a perfectly valid reason as to why he did not run up to the best of his form at Cheltenham. Equally as valid a reason as him failing to get the trip, him not acting on the ground, or Denman simply being better on the day.
His defeat is most likely a combination of all of the above factors, but it’s an absolute truism (as far as I’m concerned) that Kauto Star did not jump well in the Gold Cup.
You’re watching a different race from me, Flash.
It is abundantly clear to me that Kauto Star is jumping nowhere near as fluently as Denman in the Gold Cup, or as fluently as he did at Kempton and Ascot earlier in the season.
He might not have been making calamitous errors, but he was definitely not jumping as he can do. Despite whacking the odd one every now and then last season, Kauto Star is essentially a very fluent lepper – and he was anything but fluent in the Gold Cup…………….the word I would us is ‘sticky’.
This is not to excuse Kauto Star’s defeat, but it seems a perfectly valid reason as to why he did not run up to the best of his form at Cheltenham. Equally as valid a reason as him failing to get the trip, him not acting on the ground, or Denman simply being better on the day.
His defeat is most likely a combination of all of the above factors, but it’s an absolute truism (as far as I’m concerned) that Kauto Star did not jump well in the Gold Cup.
Fair enough mate, all a matter of opinion. I’m one of those that doesn’t believe that jumping is Kauto’s strength anyway I really don’t think he is the best of jumpers at the best of times.
just my view.
here here flash, dont mean to be rude grass but kato is a star what he has acheived.. but to say he is a fluent jumper in the real world of horses he is far from fluent , his jumpin is the downfall…. when he has no1 breathin down his neck he can get away with the odd whack n scramble… but speed and not fluent jumpin…. hence the goldcup.. is not ideal
I disagree, beckster………….he was very fluent at both Kempton and Ascot, and he jumped like a stag in the BetFair Chase.
As good as kauto is i think paul and ruby now know were they stand with this horse, i will be surprised if i see kauto at the gold cup next year, seeing ruby after his defeat at aintree was more than just "wrong tactics" he wanted this horse to go out on a winning note, and i dont know who looked more gutted kauto or ruby.i dont think kauto will ever beat denman the way exotic dancer cannot beat kauto, cheltenham proved that, paul nicholls is not an idiot, he knows the best horse won and i think he will be looking for a new route for kauto next year.
Kerry you are saying these things but not justifying them.
The one thing every one is presuming is that Denman will go to the Gold Cup unbeaten next season…….For one if he runs in the Hennessy giving lumps of weight away he will rpobaly get stuffed as he simply is that good.
Love to see him trying to give a stone or so to Exotic Dancer when he’s on form.
That aside there is absolutely nothing to say Kauto won’t come right back to his best..He has showed guts and determiation in defeat and he is still a young horse……why do you think an 8 year old not yet in his prime is finished?…of course there was more to his defeat at Aintree than tactics………he had a hard race at Cheltenham which woudn’t have helped…….he had the race in his pocket despite the tactics being wrong and made a horrendous blunder at the 2nd last……Our Vic was well beaten at the time……….no way would he not have won had Ruby rode him in the usual manner IMO……These thing happen every day in racing and they are hardly final
Fist that was quite calm and polite for you.
There are some people that think Kauto’s best days are behind him, him being a french bred. Personally I’m in agreement with you I think he’s still as good as ever and will prove it next season.
The King George will no doubt be his 2008 Christmas target again, anybody fancy anything to beat him?
I think there is some truth in most of the opinions on the last few pages.
The fact that a staunch Kauto Star fan (Kalidor) can agree with non KS obssessives that KS was beaten fair and square on the day is more enlightening to me, than the excuses for KS’s defeat.
I cannot believe KS would have won the Gold Cup had he not been “sticky” at his fences. How can you say Denman would not have responded to his jockey’s further urgings if necesary?
I think KS is brilliant, a freak – but as another poster said, not “un-exposable” and therefore not unbeatable.
That is what he lost on Gold Cup day – his aura of supremacy,
It will be fascinating to see the 2 of ’em face each other again on good gorund come the 2009 Gold Cup.
I would still want to be on Denman – unless KS was a stupid EW price.
Even if Denman gets beaten pre Gold Cup next season, that does not mean he won’t perform just as well come the big day.
Fist – I’m not sure how Denman would end up giving exotic Dancer a stone in the Hennessey 2009 – that sounds like toilet, mate.
Zip
Zippy, I don’t know whether or not KS would have won without his “sticky” jumping. All I know (or suspect, at least) is that KS was not able to run up to his best form at Cheltenham. Indeed, as I said earlier in the thread, it’s my suspicion that he may never be able to run up to his best at Cheltenham – it’s very possibly just not his track.
The main beef I have with the Gold Cup is that the handicapper has taken a very literal view of the race, and rated Denman as if Kauto Star has run up to his best form, when it’s aboslutely clear to me, that that isn’t the case.
That’s not to take anything away from Denman – who was a worthy winner, and I would fancy him to ‘do’ Kauto Star again in next year’s renewal, all other things being equal. But I find it extremely hard to swallow that Denman’s performance was worth an official rating of 185. In fact, I think it’s a joke of a rating.
We’re not still debating this, are we ?
Get over it, all you Kauto fans.
Accept it,
The King is dead, long live the King (Denman)
Gambling Only Pays When You're Winning
I think there is some truth in most of the opinions on the last few pages.
I cannot believe KS would have won the Gold Cup had he not been "sticky" at his fences. How can you say Denman would not have responded to his jockey’s further urgings if necesary?
Zip
C,mon Zippy you do have eyes in your head. Denman did the job exceptionally well but he doesn’t have that boost of speed that we would all love him to have.
It would have been great to see him accelarate up the hill and leave all in his wake but he’s just not that type of horse.
Ruby Walsh went into the Lexus with an open mind or sio he claims, but when he asked Denman to quicken after the last he simply didn’t find much at all……….he knew that if he had beeen riding Kauto in the same race on the top of his form he would have won a lot farther. So he decided to stick to Kauto in the Gold Cup.
What you are asking of Denman is near impossible…..He has this huge stride that allows him to travel well than at some point he elengthendsthe stride and the race is over……He wins races about 5 to 7 fences from home and has hit top speed by 3 or even 4 fences out……The only way he will be beaten barring accidents is that if a horse Like kauto who has acceleration can keep tabs on him without burnig out………Kauto doesn’t normally come of the bridle and he wins pretty damn easy by simply accelerating and puting his opponents in a position where they would need wings to catch him.
If it ever comes to the situation where both horse come to the last and both are travelling well within themselves then thre would only be one winner.
Denman is a million miles of the type of horse who would quicken again if challenged a short way from home.
The problem is for his opponents is getting into that challenging position which will be easier said than done.
He’s an awesome horse but he’s up there to be shot at…whether it be in a race like the Gold Cup or one like the Hennessy. giving away weight……sooner or later his weakness will be exposed.
Fist – Surely if Denman quickens more than once to get other horses off the bridle, then he is showing a turn of foot? It is just the stage of the race at which his pace is used. Any different from KS?
Zippy
think thats abit wrong in my eyes. kato has always won easy his is true, but when he had some competition @ speed the jumpin let him down, n wether he was on or of form in g,cup, at end of day denman won…………. and yea it would have been great if dman won by loads of lengths but does it matter as at end of the day a win is a win in the horse world…………..
Everyone should try an experiment I did.
Open two windows and watch the two previous Gold Cups side by side.My thoughts.
It’s almost exact at the start, until the tenth fence, at which stage the 2008 horses are a bit clear of the 2007 horses. They stay the same until the latter stages, when Kauto starts coming through – he’s absolutely cantering and if you watch him alongside his future self, there’s no doubt as to which Kauto ran the better race. He makes up some ground in the 2007, whereas in the 2008 he’s treading water at a slightly slower pace.
He didn’t run his race.Was the Gold Cup not run in a quicker time this year?
No.
Seven seconds slower according to Racing Post. Watch the races alongside each other and all these theories of Denman burning him off six furlongs out are put to bed.
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