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He made history, is he arkle, not in a million years, Is Paul Nichols Vincent O’Brian, no bloody chance.
He deserves his place in history for what he has done.
Well said, couldn’t agree more.
The idea that Arkle could give Kauto Star 2 stone and a beating is of course laughable.
In the history of ANY sport, there has been no single athlete so superior to his rivals or contemparies as we are meant to believe Arkle is to all his.
The horse did extraordinary things in his day….but like someone else said…horse population was much smaller then. how many French breds did he take on?, training techniques are a different (and poorer) era, training facilities, horse feed, vet care etc etc.
But let everyone hid behind the "Arkle was a freak arguement" because its so easy to go along with the legend theory.
Arkle would likely have "blown up" due to lack of fitness if he took part in this year’s Gold Cup, and probably pulled up in last years severe test.
If anyone is interested have made a video of him, it’s pretty naff but think it shows him in a good light
http://s692.photobucket.com/albums/vv281/kautostar1/?action=view¤t=Edited2ndGoldcup.flv
http://s692.photobucket.com/albums/vv28 … oldcup.flvThe idea that Arkle could give Kauto Star 2 stone and a beating is of course laughable.
In the history of ANY sport, there has been no single athlete so superior to his rivals or contemparies as we are meant to believe Arkle is to all his.
Arkle would likely have "blown up" due to lack of fitness if he took part in this year’s Gold Cup, and probably pulled up in last years severe test.
Point 1, Correct – I agree with you on this. Arkle trying to concede 2 stones to KS would have been a step too far. But he could have conceded him some weight and would have beaten him.
Handicaps, unlike grade or conditions races are meant to equalise the chances of every horse in the race. Therefore, it could be reasonably argued that the likes Arkle and Kauto have a distinct and unfair advantage in grade races where the runners carry comparable weights. Therefore, a better way of gauging their true dominance and ability is for them to concede weight to those horses deemed inferior.
Point 2. That is simply wrong. There have been athletes (and racehorses) that have been so superior and every bit just as dominant in their particular sphere as Arkle was.
Point 3. What arrant nonsense. If you profess to know anything at all about horse racing then you wouldn’t have made such an ill informed statement. A fit Arkle would have won that race last Friday without any problem.
Gambling Only Pays When You're Winning
Kauto Star V Arkle what a subject.
Fisrt of Ginge is a mile of the mark bringing time into it both horses ran identical times in the King George which throws that out the window.
Plus go and talk to a groundsman and he will tell you how much the truf on a race course has improved over the last 40 odd years to help horses travel better.
We have two wonderful horses with one big difference. Arkle was a superior jumper a stronger galloper with about 4 gears and as he changed up the opposition dropped off. Once he matured no horse got anywhere near him off level weights and most horses still wouldn’t have getting 2 stone. They had to change the handicapping he was so superior. 2 stone wasn’t enough to give most of the others a chance. We got nothing around that casues that to happen these days.
I very much doubt he could have given a lot of weight to Kauto Star and beat him but they said that about Mill House and he gave him something like 16lbs and a thrashing at Sandown.
One minute we got people saying the Gold Cup opposition was poor next thing we have people saying he’s better than Arkle.
Which is it to be lads. There is no questioning Fulke Walwyn one of the greatest trainers ever and he regarded Mill House as unbeateable. Could the same be said about Neptune Collonges? No way. Could KS give Denman 16lbs and beat him 24 lengths. In a pigs eye he could.
Kauto Star is not Arkle and is no Arkle but he’s a fantastic horse in his own right and if he and Arkle had met in the Tingle Creek Kauto would beat him comfortably.
That is what sets Kauto Star above all other horses. His ability to produce this magical turn of foot instantly and at any distance. Arkle couldn’t do that he would take too long to get into top gear and Kauto would be gone by then.
If we are talking Gold Cups Arkle would have eaten him alive. Personally I think you just need to look at the two videos to see that and watch the way Arkle comes up the hill compared to Kauto.
In a King George Arkle for me would still have the edge if not by much, over 2m4f and Kauto would have won but again not by much.
DENMAN: He’d beat the two of them
Joking!!!I was thinking about Denman’s performance in the Gold Cup and how it will affect Kauto Star’s place in history.
We know he wasn’t 100% or so we are led to believe. I don’t think PN is so sure now as he was before the race
It’s just I remember backing Denman in the Hennessy then the next day reading something about him not being 100% fit. I thought gee thanks Mr Nichols tell me now.
However he won the race doing handstands and now he has run a cracking race again in the gold Cup again not being 100%.
That leads me to believe a 100% Denman may not have much more to offer than we saw on Friday.
I can’t have that personally – after winning the race last season grindng from the front, if they thought the horse was back at full fitness they would surely not have changed a winning tactic.
Does anyone know the times of Arkles victories compared to Kauto Stars? I though I read somewhere that, even with new technology the speed of a horse hasn’t actually increased a great deal over the years..what I did find interesting on Kautos Wikipedia [the gospel according to] site the lengths that P Nicholls goes to to prevent any risk of infection to his horses; he disinfects everything worn by the jockeys and the horses tack; quarantines any new arrivals at his other stables along with horses that have been to the vets etc; is it an attention to detail that other trainers do not think of doing or is it common practice these days?
At Alan King’s, new arrivals used to be quarantined i.e. boxed some way away from the main yard.
We weren’t disinfected but the barns were on a regular basis.
I don’t know if that is still the case.
Colin
Look at how Martin Pipe revolutionised fitness in horse training in the 80s and 90s….all his horses were not neccessarily better than the opposition but when your fitness levels are on a different level all together. Few of his winners were ever superstars but fitness won the day. Nicholls has now taken it to another level.
Arkle would not compare to today’s runner in comparison to fitness and it is impossible to know what sort of horse he would be under today’s conditions. No doubt those that call him a freak will just assume he would be equally as dominant but of course if you look at it objectively you’d know it would be very unlikely to be the case.
Handicaps, unlike grade or conditions races are meant to equalise the chances of every horse in the race. Therefore, it could be reasonably argued that the likes Arkle and Kauto have a distinct and unfair advantage in grade races where the runners carry comparable weights. Therefore, a better way of gauging their true dominance and ability is for them to concede weight to those horses deemed inferior.
With all due respect…that is a load of nonsense. What is the point of having conditions races then? You clearly think the Hennessy is superior to the Gold Cup then? Handicaps are one persons (handicapper) opinion on a race. In a conditions race, there are no excuses….the best take on the best.
If you could transfer Kauto Star back to Arkle’s day and KS got the type of training that Arkle got then I am sure there is every chance that Arkle could be his superior. But the idea that he is certain to beat Kauto under today’s conditions comes from a lack of understanding of the (for the want of a better phrase) science of racing.
Himself, I would be interested to know what other sports stars from the 60s and 70s are considered so
hugely
superior to recent stars of track and field, tennis, swimming etc.
Professor Mark Denny "proved" in his paper "Limits to running speed in dogs, horses and humans" (published in
The Journal of Experimental Biology
in November 2008) that racehorse athletic performance plateaued in the early-1970s and that advances since then and in the future have been/will be largely down to variance.
That was US Flat racehorses, however, and a lot of his assumptions were decidedly iffy in my opinion, for all that the statistical methods used were impressive.
The point about Arkle is that you knew that whatever you threw at him; huge weights, different going etc etc he would win..what other horse that has ever raced [having to negotiate fences as well] has there ever been that certainty that defeat was out of the question? but this isn’t about hi jacking Kautos thread..he is, without a doubt something very very special, and I wonder if he should still be called L’Extreterrestrial [sp] because I think that name suits him far better….
Look at how Martin Pipe revolutionised fitness in horse training in the 80s and 90s….all his horses were not neccessarily better than the opposition but when your fitness levels are on a different level all together. Few of his winners were ever superstars but fitness won the day. Nicholls has now taken it to another level.
Arkle would not compare to today’s runner in comparison to fitness and it is impossible to know what sort of horse he would be under today’s conditions. No doubt those that call him a freak will just assume he would be equally as dominant but of course if you look at it objectively you’d know it would be very unlikely to be the case.
Handicaps, unlike grade or conditions races are meant to equalise the chances of every horse in the race. Therefore, it could be reasonably argued that the likes Arkle and Kauto have a distinct and unfair advantage in grade races where the runners carry comparable weights. Therefore, a better way of gauging their true dominance and ability is for them to concede weight to those horses deemed inferior.
With all due respect…that is a load of nonsense. What is the point of having conditions races then? You clearly think the Hennessy is superior to the Gold Cup then? Handicaps are one persons (handicapper) opinion on a race. In a conditions race, there are no excuses….the best take on the best.
If you could transfer Kauto Star back to Arkle’s day and KS got the type of training that Arkle got then I am sure there is every chance that Arkle could be his superior. But the idea that he is certain to beat Kauto under today’s conditions comes from a lack of understanding of the (for the want of a better phrase) science of racing.
Himself, I would be interested to know what other sports stars from the 60s and 70s are considered so
hugely
superior to recent stars of track and field, tennis, swimming etc.
My point about conditions and grade races is a valid one. Think about it – when horses of average talent are asked to carry the same weight as champions or horses of outstanding ability then it is fair to assume that their chances of defeating those considered superior are considerably lessened. Whereas, if the inferior horses are allotted less weight in handicaps, their chances are heightened somewhat. Is this not the case ?
If Usain Bolt had 14 bags of sugar strapped to his body – do you think he could beat his rivals so easily – or if Federer, Nadal were forced to use old wooden rackets, do you think they would be so effective – or if Steven Gerrard or Cristiano Ronaldo had to play with a much heavier and bigger ball, or with heavier boots on heavier pitches, do you think they would be so effective ?
Footballers back in the 60s and 70s may not have been as fit or as thoroughly and well trained as today’s over pampered stars, but trust me on this – the great players were every bit as skilfull – if not more so. Do you really think that players such as Cruyff, Beckenbauer, Pele, Muller, Garrincha, Jinky Johnstone, Rivera, Moore, Charlton, Law and George Best couldn’t play in any era. Of course they could.
As regards to horseracing ; yes, of course training methods have improved considerably – as they have in all sports. However, champions of all eras tend to transcend time and as many a good judge will tell you, they would have been able to adapt to whatever era they found themselves in.
I’ll leave the last word on this to ‘"Chasers and Hurdlers" when commenting on the Arkle vs the rest debate a couple of years ago, commented:
" If these reminiscences about Arkle conjure up strains of the theme from a Hovis bread commercial, we apologise – but if comparisons with Arkle had not been made, we would not have had to refute them. Arkle’s feats were extraordinary by the standards of his day, and nothing short of STAGGERING by THOSE OF THE PRESENT DAY. "
Gambling Only Pays When You're Winning
Arkle was a complete freak lads. There’ll never be another one like him and it’s completely pointless comparing today’s horses to him. Just enjoy the horses that are around now for what they are but don’t insult peoples intelligence by suggesting they could be as good as Himself.
The problem with this statement is that according to Timeform, there was indeed another one very much like him – only 2lb inferior in fact – who was living in the next-door box at precisely the same time. Quite a coincidence, no?
Yet every other horse ever bred to jump a fence over the last 50-odd years – a quarter of a million or so perhaps, and possibly many more – has been at least 19lb inferior to the pair of them (and the third-placed horse in Timeform’s all-time list, Mill House, was also racing at the same time).
I find that very difficult to believe.
Arkle was a complete freak lads. There’ll never be another one like him and it’s completely pointless comparing today’s horses to him. Just enjoy the horses that are around now for what they are but don’t insult peoples intelligence by suggesting they could be as good as Himself.
The problem with this statement is that according to Timeform, there was indeed another one very much like him – only 2lb inferior in fact – who was living in the next-door box at precisely the same time. Quite a coincidence, no?
Yet every other horse ever bred to jump a fence over the last 50-odd years – a quarter of a million or so perhaps, and possibly many more – has been at least 19lb inferior to the pair of them (and the third-placed horse in Timeform’s all-time list, Mill House, was also racing at the same time).
I find that very difficult to believe.
Exactly its rubbish nothing less.
If you take it that Exotic Dancer ran to peak RPR last week it is possible to rate Kauto Star at 201 on the back of it. Even on Exotics top official rating it is possible to rate Kauto 200. See how easy it can be to distort ratings. Thats what happened many, many times prior to around the year 2000 horses were constantly rated up excessively rather than a conservative and sensible approach being employed. If Denman then beat the 201 rated Kauto by ten lenghts then you get a 210 rated horse. It can very easily start to get a bit silly. Nowadays ratings compilers are much less naive but lets not forget the concept of rating horses was not fully established in the 1960’s. The International classifications didn’t even begin till the 1970’s (1977 I think).
The thing is you can’t ignore the facts Mr Frisk.
I have as much right and more reason to claim Kauto Star was his equal but I just can’t bring myself to believe it.
Horses aren’t atheletes and although training methods may have improved I think I am right in saying times aren’t that much different.
It would seem horses don’t improve at the rate human have been doing.
How long did Mamood 1930’s hold the record for the Epsom Derby?
I know Gold Cup winner Mill House held the record at Sandown over 3 miles and there was a big write up about it in the SC as he had knocked a fair bit of time of it. Seemed a big thing until Arkle came along and not only beat Mill House and co by 20 lengths he knocked another 17 seconds of the course record doing it.
Can you imagine Kauto Star knocking 17 seconds of say Dessies time for the King George. He would need to be some kind of freak to do that would he not?
Or Can you imagine Kauto Star being asked to give this years Scottish Grand National 42lbs and beat him in a common canter by 5 lengths.
I would say that would be impossible but Arkle did it and that is a fact and Arkle that day could have carried 14 stone and still won.
These are the type of things that made Arkle the highest rated horse ever. The din’t do it for the fun of it they did it because they had to.
Kauto Star is a brilliant horse but he hasn’t been asked to do the things Arkle did.
You really had to be there. The TV clips show some of his ability but I can remember Arkle going into a fence one day and I swear he was 3 lengths behind. He took of miles from the fence cleared it by at least 3 feet landed perfectly balanced and with in one stride of landing was 2 lengths up and gone. I remember my Uncle saying "That’s not a horse it’s a friggin gizzelle"
Kauto is fantasic to watch he travelles better than any horse racing today and has an uncanny turn of foot but Arkle drew breaths from the stands with his jumping and ooh’s and ah’s with some awesome leaps miles above fences..He had this beautiful posture in the air and the way he landed he got away from a fence so fast he gained length after length at every fence.
I’m sorry but Kauto is a bit of a funny jumper and you could hardly call him majestic and you never see him pass 3 horses in the air like Arkle did often. Master Minded is the nearest I’ve seen to him actually, he did it at sandown and broght back a lot of memeories I can tell you
When he walked into a parade ring it was like Muhammad Ali, Pele and Tiger Woods all walking into a room at the same time. Had Arkle been a person he would have outshone them all
When I was a kid TV’s turned on all over my estate just to watch this marvel run. Housewives, grannies punters and non punters alike. It was like Grand National Day everytime he ran and you woud be lucky to find anyone on the street at the time of the race.
I understand for a younger person all this is hard to take in. Arkle was a living Legend, a household name with a huge fan club and if you think Dessie was popular then try multiplying that by one thousand and you get pretty near the figure that knew of Arkle. John Lennon said the Beatles were more popular than Jesus Arkle was more popular than the Beatles in Ireland..The highest honour during the war was the victoria cross the highest honour in Ireland is the name "Himself" and it always be his.
Sorry such a long post but when someone says I don’t believe he was that superior it’s the only way I can think of convincing him he was everything timeform said he was.
Doesn’t take long to find his story on the net and if you do try to imagine Kauto doing what Arkle did nowadays. Like me I think you will give up quickly on that quest
and even if he didn’t jump a fence he still went from one side of it to the other without losing momentum……and that head, and those eyes and that ‘presence’…..
The idea that Arkle could give Kauto Star 2 stone and a beating is of course laughable.
In the history of ANY sport, there has been no single athlete so superior to his rivals or contemparies as we are meant to believe Arkle is to all his.
Arkle would likely have "blown up" due to lack of fitness if he took part in this year’s Gold Cup, and probably pulled up in last years severe test.
Point 1, Correct – I agree with you on this. Arkle trying to concede 2 stones to KS would have been a step too far. But he could have conceded him some weight and would have beaten him.
Handicaps, unlike grade or conditions races are meant to equalise the chances of every horse in the race. Therefore, it could be reasonably argued that the likes Arkle and Kauto have a distinct and unfair advantage in grade races where the runners carry comparable weights. Therefore, a better way of gauging their true dominance and ability is for them to concede weight to those horses deemed inferior.
Point 2. That is simply wrong. There have been athletes (and racehorses) that have been so superior and every bit just as dominant in their particular sphere as Arkle was.
Point 3. What arrant nonsense. If you profess to know anything at all about horse racing then you wouldn’t have made such an ill informed statement. A fit Arkle would have won that race last Friday without any problem.
"H" my old mate I have noticed those who are coming away with such statements are saying so without any foundation to it. Those who saw the horse and knew the horse could put up a thousand reasons why Arkle was clearly superior but these experts are still going to open their mouths and letting their belly’s rumble.
The best horse in trainging today was supposed to be Master Minded. He started at odds of 4/11 I think. Arkle won his third Gold Cup at 1/10 which says it all.
I said before the Gold Gup Kauto should be odds on but 1/10? Anyway he started at Odds against with the whole world knowing Denman coudn’t win.
Enough said even if he did win like a 1/6 shot.
Joking!!!
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