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Just watched a replay of the race.
The runner-up, Main Aim, is clearly a seven furlong specialist who has the tools to operate at six.
Why? He appears to have run the best race of his career being ridden prominently over 6 furlongs so why not do the same again? There should be opportunities as the sprinting division is not very strong.
Just watched a replay of the race.
The runner-up, Main Aim, is clearly a seven furlong specialist who has the tools to operate at six.
Why? He appears to have run the best race of his career being ridden prominently over 6 furlongs so why not do the same again? There should be opportunities as the sprinting division is not very strong.
Main Aim certainly goes to Haydock (if connections take him there) with a big chance.
His record over seven speaks for itself, though. Three wins from four, including the Group Three John Of Gaunt. I don’t know if connections have considered the Prix De La Foret, but that’s certainly a Group One option after the Betfred.
The July Cup was a messy race and I wouldn’t be surprised if we see the formbook turned on its head at Haydock.
Paco Boy doesn’t hold an entry for the race, but J J and Main Aim go there with a huge chance, with preference for the South African challenger.
I will be very interested if African Rose makes the race. I thought she ran a solid race yesterday on unsuitable ground.
The ultimate coming-back-in-trip July Cup performance was the 1882 winner, Tristan, who’d just completed a Royal Ascot double in the Queen’s Vase and Hardwicke Stakes. Beat that!
Good stat Venusian! Suprised nobody has mentioned that Les Arcs has been running over hurdles at Cartmel less than 2 years before his victory in the July Cup…
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My general point was that the horse is considered to be a 7f specialist who gets a mile. He has won Group 1s over 7f in France (last season) and 1 mile in the UK ( Royal Ascot this season). There are not many Group 1 races over 7f in the UK ,which basically forced the trainer’s hand to go for the mile which he felt was within the horse’s compass as it got a year older. There was much discussion as to whether it actually got the mile which seemed to have been put to bed after the Ascot performance. The trainer also expressed a view that the horse required a bit of give in the ground and would never be risked on fast going. thus he was talking about top 7f and mile races in France and the UK.
I was therefore surprised to see it line up for a sprint race (hasn’t run over that distance since it was a 2 year old), on good to firm against specialist sprinters where the winner produced a time just outside the track record and with a substitute jockey.
As to how the tactics or race panned out , its performance was described on the Sporting Life website as "never reached leaders, too much to do" or in the RP as "outpaced 2f out going into the dip"- everyone has their opinion and you take your pick!From comments made to the press and on his website it was obvious that Hannon didn’t want to go Dubai first time up , doesn’t want to go to a Breeders Cup and probably didn’t want to run yesterday.
The horse didn’t have a hard race (didn’t see Fortune use the whip) and I hope it comes out of the race OK as it is a faourite of mine and bargain buy at £30k.
The owners are always right as they pay the bills but I’d like to see them listen to the trainer and campaign over 7f and a mile where there is some juice and not over sprint distances.
His defeats of Dream Eater and Cesare is no where near good enough to be taking on the best over a mile. Both have let the form down badly.
He’s in the Sussex Stakes against the likes of Rip Van Winkle, Ghanaati and Gladiatorus. If he goes there and they all run it would be a waste of time and the owners money.
Paco Boy is no forlorn hope in any 1m Group 1 – i don’t see how any horses you have named above have better form than him over a mile.
To the contrary in fact, i’d have him as the one to beat.
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Really? PC……on which piece of form do you base that on?
Hosing up in the Queen Anne, which is only my opinion of course. On which ones of the others would you class him as a no hoper?
I think he is still very much an unexposed miler and am puzzled as to why you would consider a Sussex tilt a waste of timeThe July Cup is a race that often favours horses coming back in trip as the course is a very stiff 6f. Green Desert, Ajdal, Chief Singer, Mozart, Stravinsky, Mr Brooks ……….. correct me if I’m wrong but didn’t they all win the July Cup having been previously campaigned over further?
Nobody seems to remember the ones coming back in trip that failed, only the few that succeeded. Most of those were three year olds whose optimum trip was unclear before the July Cup. A four year old with plenty of form from which to judge it’s optimum distance etc is a less likely contender, unless it has been crying out for a shorter trip.
As for the course being very stiff the RP standard time for the July Cup course is 1.10.3, which is about average for a 6f in this country. Plenty of straight flat courses have slower standard times eg Ripon, Doncaster, Folkestone, Redcar, Thirsk…….. Haydock and Newcastle are at 1.12.4. For stiff courses there’s Salisbury 1.13.0, Ascot 1.13.5 and Pontefract at 1.15.2. So the July Cup course is definitely not a very stiff 6f.
I’d suggest you don’t become petty it really doesn’t do much other than come across as a little childish.
Well I’d suggest that you think twice before you describe someone else’s opinion as nonsense, then they will be less inclined to pick you up on your mistakes. Here is another person using the word nonsense with much more justification. From Richard Hannon’s website:-
Hannon said:"The Racing UK pair (Lydia Hislop and Steve Mellish) cut Jimmy (Fortune) to pieces, and it was most unfair. It is obvious that neither of them have ever sat on a racehorse in their lives, because I have never heard so much nonsense talked after a race.
"The fact is Paco Boy could not go the early pace and then he became totally unbalanced in the Dip. Once he met the rising ground he took off, and these so-called experts don’t seem to understand that plenty of horses fail to handle that run down into the Dip at Newmarket. It was the same with Big Audio in the Superlative Stakes – he lost his race there, too."
Plenty of so-called experts also don’t seem to be able to judge the pace of a race. These are the approximate sectional times I came up with :-
Start to 1f…….14.3
1f to 2f…………11.0
2f to 3f…………10.7
3f to 4f…………10.8
4f to 5f…………10.5
5f to 6f…………12.28
Total…………1.09.58After an average first furlong (for the grade) the times are very fast, finishing just 0.07 seconds outside Stravinsky’s track record.
With the going, the dip and the speed of the race Paco Boy stood no chance.
- Total Posts 17716
Hosing up in the Queen Anne, which is only my opinion of course. On which ones of the others would you class him as a no hoper?
I think he is still very much an unexposed miler and am puzzled as to why you would consider a Sussex tilt a waste of timeI can’t share your opinion that the Queen Anne form puts him anywhere near 1000 and 2000 Guineas standard.
He defeated Cesare who is a far cry from top class. Gladiatorus ran way below expecations and was never a threat and as a result the race turned into a bit of a farce. Main Aim didn’t stay and Aqlaam seems to have run below par as since then he has turned the Ascot form on it’s head with a turnaround of about 10 lengths with Cesare.
Paco’s form against Dreameater isn’t worth a pinch of salt. 4 times he has failed to boost the Sandown form.
Rip Van Winkle on the otherhand but for hanging would have gone very close to beating Sea the Stars in the Eclipse, Ghanaati proved he 1000 guineas win was no fluke.
Gladiatorus was way too easy to back at Ascot. Frankie had ridden him work a few days beforehand an said the horse never went well for him. IMO and it is only an opinion he was no where near right at Ascot and he could yet prove to be something very very special.
Paco Boy is a hard horse not to like but going from racing against Dream Eater and Cesare it will be like stepping into the Twighlight Zone when taking on these.
To be Honest PC I have severe doubts about him turning up at Goodwood if those 3 run and that’s why I said what I did about it being a waste of time. My bet is he’ll go to France for the 6 1/2f sprint which would be the more sensible thing to do.
I think you have things the wrong way round with Aqlaam and Cesare – surely Cesare ran way below par in the summer mile rather than Aqlaam finding stones of improvement.
The July Cup is a race that often favours horses coming back in trip as the course is a very stiff 6f. Green Desert, Ajdal, Chief Singer, Mozart, Stravinsky, Mr Brooks ……….. correct me if I’m wrong but didn’t they all win the July Cup having been previously campaigned over further?
Nobody seems to remember the ones coming back in trip that failed, only the few that succeeded. Most of those were three year olds whose optimum trip was unclear before the July Cup. A four year old with plenty of form from which to judge it’s optimum distance etc is a less likely contender, unless it has been crying out for a shorter trip.
As for the course being very stiff the RP standard time for the July Cup course is 1.10.3, which is about average for a 6f in this country. Plenty of straight flat courses have slower standard times eg Ripon, Doncaster, Folkestone, Redcar, Thirsk…….. Haydock and Newcastle are at 1.12.4. For stiff courses there’s Salisbury 1.13.0, Ascot 1.13.5 and Pontefract at 1.15.2. So the July Cup course is definitely not a very stiff 6f.
I’d suggest you don’t become petty it really doesn’t do much other than come across as a little childish.
Well I’d suggest that you think twice before you describe someone else’s opinion as nonsense, then they will be less inclined to pick you up on your mistakes. Here is another person using the word nonsense with much more justification. From Richard Hannon’s website:-
Hannon said:"The Racing UK pair (Lydia Hislop and Steve Mellish) cut Jimmy (Fortune) to pieces, and it was most unfair. It is obvious that neither of them have ever sat on a racehorse in their lives, because I have never heard so much nonsense talked after a race.
"The fact is Paco Boy could not go the early pace and then he became totally unbalanced in the Dip. Once he met the rising ground he took off, and these so-called experts don’t seem to understand that plenty of horses fail to handle that run down into the Dip at Newmarket. It was the same with Big Audio in the Superlative Stakes – he lost his race there, too."
Plenty of so-called experts also don’t seem to be able to judge the pace of a race. These are the approximate sectional times I came up with :-
Start to 1f…….14.3
1f to 2f…………11.0
2f to 3f…………10.7
3f to 4f…………10.8
4f to 5f…………10.5
5f to 6f…………12.28
Total…………1.09.58After an average first furlong (for the grade) the times are very fast, finishing just 0.07 seconds outside Stravinsky’s track record.
With the going, the dip and the speed of the race Paco Boy stood no chance.
Totally disagree. Hannon is merely either sticking by the jockey, an admirable trait that Paul Nicholls would do to take note of, or he’s relaying what Fortune told him. Who likes admitting they cocked up? Not may admit to it.
Paco Boy has bags of speed certainly more than Main Aim and he had no problem going the pace.
Awful ride simple as.
My general point was that the horse is considered to be a 7f specialist who gets a mile. He has won Group 1s over 7f in France (last season) and 1 mile in the UK ( Royal Ascot this season). There are not many Group 1 races over 7f in the UK ,which basically forced the trainer’s hand to go for the mile which he felt was within the horse’s compass as it got a year older. There was much discussion as to whether it actually got the mile which seemed to have been put to bed after the Ascot performance. The trainer also expressed a view that the horse required a bit of give in the ground and would never be risked on fast going. thus he was talking about top 7f and mile races in France and the UK.
I was therefore surprised to see it line up for a sprint race (hasn’t run over that distance since it was a 2 year old), on good to firm against specialist sprinters where the winner produced a time just outside the track record and with a substitute jockey.
As to how the tactics or race panned out , its performance was described on the Sporting Life website as "never reached leaders, too much to do" or in the RP as "outpaced 2f out going into the dip"- everyone has their opinion and you take your pick!From comments made to the press and on his website it was obvious that Hannon didn’t want to go Dubai first time up , doesn’t want to go to a Breeders Cup and probably didn’t want to run yesterday.
The horse didn’t have a hard race (didn’t see Fortune use the whip) and I hope it comes out of the race OK as it is a faourite of mine and bargain buy at £30k.
The owners are always right as they pay the bills but I’d like to see them listen to the trainer and campaign over 7f and a mile where there is some juice and not over sprint distances.
His defeats of Dream Eater and Cesare is no where near good enough to be taking on the best over a mile. Both have let the form down badly.
He’s in the Sussex Stakes against the likes of Rip Van Winkle, Ghanaati and Gladiatorus. If he goes there and they all run it would be a waste of time and the owners money.
Well two out of the three you named turned up.
Paco did run and beat the 1000 Guineas winner convincingly. She was in receipt of both age and fillies allowances.
He couldn’t get to the impressive winner, also giving the age allowance.RVW benefited from race tactics with the use of the pacemaker but it would be churlish to say it affected the result.
PB won £64500 for finishing second- hardly a waste of time and owner’s money
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