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Under jonjo it would have been 75% fit, clattered a few hurdles, finished a well beaten seventh and then gone to the same graveyard as Keen Leader, Iris’s Gift, Fire Dragon et al.
I thought Paul Nicholls probably had one of the best strings of NH horses that had ever been assembled!
Smithy, there’s only Kauto Star and possibly Denman that have turned into stars, the rest are probably nowt special, just like the majority of Jonjo’s, Pipes, Kings etc and this is what i’m trying to get across
PMSL – this just gets funnier and funnier. I wouldn’t mind owning a favourite for the Champion Chase, even if Charlie D said it was "nowt special"…
or a Sun Alliance Chase winner, Supreme Novice Hurdler winner, Heineken Gold Cup winner etc etc etc
So because it’s fav for CC it makes it a super horse, you are having a larf TDK
Moscow Flyer would have eaten it for breakfast
Smithy, there’s only Kauto Star and possibly Denman that have turned into stars, the rest are probably nowt special,
Twist Magic??
But a good example was Saturday at newbury. In a pretty competitive race you just knew that Celestial Halo would be primed and ready to run a decent race
But same charge under Jonjo?
Excellent point clivex and we know what the answer is.
You lot seem to think trainers have the ability to turn carp into superstars
I think i would agree that its pretty difficult to get a freshwater fish jumping around Cheltenham…
No – Charlie – I’m not having a larf.
You are quickly losing any/all credibility in this debate. I’m not claiming Twist Magic is the best horse of all time, but he was an easy winner of the G1 Tingle Creek, beating last year’s Champion Chaser and is clearly a chaser out of the top drawer.
Under jonjo it would have been 75% fit, clattered a few hurdles, finished a well beaten seventh and then gone to the same graveyard as Keen Leader, Iris’s Gift, Fire Dragon et al.
Is that the same Iris’s Gift that won World Hurdle beating Barracouda Smithy??
Under jonjo it would have been 75% fit, clattered a few hurdles, finished a well beaten seventh and then gone to the same graveyard as Keen Leader, Iris’s Gift, Fire Dragon et al.
Is that the same Iris’s Gift that won World Hurdle beating Barracouda Smithy??
…before being ruined in an abortive attempt at making him a chaser. Yes it is.
No – Charlie – I’m not having a larf.
You are quickly losing any/all credibility in this debate. I’m not claiming Twist Magic is the best horse of all time, but he was an easy winner of the G1 Tingle Creek, beating last year’s Champion Chaser and is clearly a chaser out of the top drawer.
I’m not losing any credibility TDK as i never had none, all i’m waiting for is you and Smithy to show me evidence of your assertions that Jonjo is useless and Nicholls would turn his horses into the next Kauto Star, Denman ec
Yes, Charlie. What happened to him next?
He went Chasing didn’t he Smithy and showed he was nowhere near as good in that code
Did you expect otherwise???
I presume you did, i bet his owner and trainer did too
You mean like the time O’Neill had Mountain (a very similar horse to Celestial Halo) ready first time out over hurdles to win and he did?
Jonjo O’Neill has had Cheltenham novice winners…Witchita Lineman, Black Jack Ketchum. Granted they have not progressed (well not BJK anyway) but Noland has not done much since his win either.
Don’t get me wrong I don’t think JJ O’Neill is a great trainer but he doesn’t deserve some of the bad press he gets. Many point to the investment from JP…but as it has showed in recent times in Pipes yard one owner (no matter how big) is not a match for the impressive pool of owners available to Nicholls.
He did expect it Charlie and so did I – if you had been on this forum at the time, I’m sure you would have joined in the numerous debates we had on the subject.
Iris’s Gift deserved to go over fences, indeed he was bred to and physically he had the make up for it.
While jumping was an issue for him (as it is with so many horses) it was injuries that was his main problem. When he went over fences in came after a lay off and he would not have been the quality horse he once was even when over fences. To be honest I think the owner of Iris’s Gift liked to have his say on the training of the horse….or at least that is how it seemed.
I think Charlie was around at the time, TDK.
I was Smithy and i think at time i agreed with what TDK stated and that was give up the Chasing idea and either retire him or send him back Hurdling
This sort of debate develops into an inconclusive " I like Jonjo, so he’s good" versus " I hate Jonjo, so he’s no good" squabble all too easily.
I think the woolly concept of "stable form" is part of the problem; whatever it may be, " stable form" is far from being stable; it is a variable factor, imo, and may not govern the performance of each and every horse in a yard.
It is likely that I have not understood all the points made, but as a punter I have to make decisions. These are:
I shall never be backing BJK, unless his price is in double figures.
I shall be backing ED at Cheltenham, providing he runs, and I can get a double figure price.
The supposed form of Jonjo doesn’t affect my views or actions, so I’ll say no more on this thread.
Sean Rua.
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