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Hi all,
I’ve just been watching the ‘Get On’ show where I thought Sean Boyce raised a very debatable topic that I thought I would bring to the forum for your thoughts.
I’ve informed Boycee that I will start a debate here, so please contribute if you have an opinion.
Basically, an emailer contacted Boycee to inform him that he had placed some ‘morning’ bets on all of Ryan Moore’s horses yesterday. It’s seemed obvious the punter was backing the jockey rather than the horse.
Unfortunately, Moore took a tumble early on and he was replaced by other jockeys on his later rides. The punter felt as though he had a valid case for getting his bets void because his selections were based as much on the jockey as the horse.
Where do you all stand on this?
Personally, I think it’s a very interesting debate. Jockeys are much topic of debate as the horses these days, simply because the jockey is a vital part of ‘finding a winner’. We all know that some jockeys are far stronger than others and I would never knock anyone for selecting a horse because of a particular jockey.
So if you place some bets simply because of the jockey that is riding your selection, do you have a valid case to have you stakes refunded if it is later announced that there is a jockey change on your selection? I think there is, but what do you think?
Look at Papal Bull today for example. Ryan Moore gets on with this tempremental animal very well (that’s not to say others don’t) and punters might select Papal Bull purely for this reason. If Moore doesn’t get the go ahead from the medics to ride today, and let’s say an apprentice takes over the ride – how would you feel? Would you want your bet voiding?
Many thanks for your replies in advance.
Mike
What if the horse you back is to be ridden by AN Other (3) but is replaced by Ryan Moore. Does the bookmaker have the option of cancelling the bet?
What if the horse you back is to be ridden by AN Other (3) but is replaced by Ryan Moore. Does the bookmaker have the option of cancelling the bet?
I guess that’s the other side of the coin DJ, and a very valid point indeed.
Mike
Hello again Mike. Your mail also made me consider another situation which rarely occurs but tends to set the cat amongst the pigeons when it does. Apprentice gets held up in traffic and is replaced by Ryan Moore – do you then want chance to void your bet on another horse in the race?
In other words is a jockey change potentially such a material change to a race’s nature -and potentially to the market – that you should be allowed chance to void your bet?
Of course all of this in practice would be potentially hard to work out and nearly impossible for exchanges I’d have thought.Sean/DJ,
LIke I say, it’s the other side of the coin, so maybe as there is so much competition between bookmakers these day, some bookies could offer it as a concession, rather than a mandatory part of their rules.
I am certain if a bookie said to me that if my original selection had a jockey change, then I had an option of either sticking with the selection or voiding it – then that bookie would certainly get my custom.
What do you think?
Mike
Hello again Mike. Your mail also made me consider another situation which rarely occurs but tends to set the cat amongst the pigeons when it does. Apprentice gets held up in traffic and is replaced by Ryan Moore – do you then want chance to void your bet on another horse in the race?
Or by K. Fallon on a well-backed horse of Mark Wallace’s at Brighton. All hypotheticals of course.
Mikky its totally unworkable, anything can happen during the day jockey gets fall, feels ill whatever, regardless of how good Ryan Moore is, his replacement will usually be just as capable, as I have said many times before, jockeyship is sometimes overrated and there isn’t a lot between most of the top jockeys, I have no scientific basis to go on, but if someone done a study on how many races a jockey won by been superior to another jockey I would say it would be fairly negligible as usually the best horse will win regardless.
After all it is called horse racing Mikky, you are backing a horse to win a race not a jockey, if the presence of a certain jockey persuaded you to back a certain horse thats just your opinion someone else might be turned off by the presence of the same jockey, back the horse Mikky if its good enough it will usually win, luck in running invariably comes into play in British racing with such idiosyncratic tracks and big fields, even the best jockeys sometimes can’t for the world find daylight, then the punters are clammering saying it was a poor ride when most of the time it was just bad luck. Some jockeys get a dream run when the red sea opens up before them and get up to win a shorthead and the punters are saying it was a superb ride while it was really just a lucky ride, because he got the break he wanted at the right time. In certain races especially sprints jockeys have a split second to make a decision their lucky sometimes and sometimes their not, thats the pitfalls of British racing for you.Totally unworkable IMO. In general and in most cases, the jockey booked should make very little difference to the result and a jockey charge will be reflected to some extent in the price of the horse (no good if you’ve already back the horse I know)
Next thing punters will bets to be voidable for things like going changes during a day or dolled off fences.
If the presence of the booked jockey is that important to you as a punter, then delay your bet until 15 minutes before the off. After that the jockey can’t be changed.
I’d agree with DB that fences or hurdles taken out can have much more influence on the result than a jockey change.
AP
Next thing punters will bets to be voidable for things like going changes during a day or dolled off fences.
Christ, don’t even go there – can you have imagined the mass of void coupons the bookies could have been inundated with the day Stormez won the Servo Chase-in-name-only at Cheltenham?
Back to riders; I didn’t observe the markets on the day, but I wonder how many people deserted Jimmy Lambe’s runner at Cartmel the other week when the declared but absent AP McCoy was replaced by the perfectly able Miss Jacqui Kidd (7) at short notice, and did themselves out of a winner in the process.
Jeremy
(graysonscolumn)Jeremy Grayson. Son of immigrant. Adoptive father of two. Metadata librarian. Freelance point-to-point / horse racing writer, analyst and commentator wonk. Loves music, buses, cats, the BBC Micro, ale. Advocate of CBT, PACE and therapeutic parenting. Aspergers.
I can understand some punters wanting to void their bets due to a late jockey change but I don’t think that this would be a workable rule that most bookmakers would be prepared to offer.
Obviously, if you bet on the exchanges like I do mostly then it is possible to lay your bet off for the amount of your stake and not lose assuming the odds on the horse have not lengthened.Thanks for the input guys.
I have to say that it wasn’t my thought – I just saw the topic on ATR and Boycee asked for opinions, hence me putting it on here.
I totally agree it’s practically unworkable, but I can also understand the frustration of punters who back a certain jockey (especially a top one), and then see him replaced by a ‘lesser’ jockey for want of a better word.
But like some of you have pointed out, it’s horse racing and any serious punters back a horse, while factoring in the jockey right up until the off time. I dare say if you place bets early or ante post, the jockey change scenario is the chance you take – and of course, it could always work in your favour.
Once again, thanks for your comments.
Mike
And what would happen if Ryan Moore was replaced by G Lewis (3) and the horse romped home. Ok sorry, i’m being ridiculous.
I think probably you sum it up well MIke. Probably unworkable as a general rule but any bookmaker who responded favourably to requests to alter bets would be showing a degree of flexibility and customer care that should endear them to said punter. If my original e mailer had been doing in a six figure sum annually with their bookmaker I’m sure the bets would have been voided quicker than you can say ‘is there anything else we can do for you?’
I know a trainer that, if wanting to land a gamble, jocks up Mr Yard Claimer (7) at 24hr stage.
Then jockey is changed at last minute, after the money is on in the morning.
Practises like that should be stopped – no idea how though.
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