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Don’t shoot the messenger Paul .. there are black Jews aren’t there?
There are indeed black Jews Dave – and that is possible ethnically, derived mainly from Ethiopian Jews. Plus, of course, it is possible for non-ethnic Jews to convert to the religion Judaism (see caveat later).
I think a problem in that there is a confusion, in that people think that ethnic and religious Judaism are one and the same, they aren’t.
Interestingly enough in Israel some of the biggest internal conflicts are not between Jews and Palestinians but between (the more extreme) religious Jews and the secular Jews.
The stoning issues you referred to earlier do indeed take place (and I have witnessed them) – although the bricks are not just thrown at other Jews but anyone who is seen not to follow their strict rules – including any tourist who ventures into their area on the Sabbath. In reality what happens in Israel is the police actually barricade the areas these ultra Orthodox Jews live in to prevent trouble. When there are problems it is usually because there has been some provocation. As in virtually every other religion there are extremists. It is these extreme Jews who also argue that only ethnic Jews can be religious Jews and that any ethnic Jew (on the maternal line) is, by default, a religious Jew.
Interesting debate chaps, which I don’t propose to get into beyond a couple of observations:
1. I don’t know Melanie Phillips from Eve, but if half the stuff on wiki about her is accurate, she wouldn’t seem first choice as a dispassionate observer on the topic:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melanie_Phillips
2. For purposes of UK race relations law (taken from Halsbury’s Laws):
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>The meaning of ‘a group defined by reference to ethnic origins’ was considered in Mandla v Dowell Lee [1983] 2 AC 548, [1983] 1 All ER 1062, HL.
Such a group must regard itself and be regarded by others as a distinct community by virtue of certain characteristics. Some are essential, others are not.
The two essential characteristics are: (1) a long shared history, of which the group is conscious as distinguishing it from other groups, and the memory of which it keeps alive; and (2) a cultural tradition of its own, including family and social occasions and manners, often, but not necessarily associated with religious observance.
The non-essential relevant characteristics were identified as: (a) a common geographical origin, or descent from a small number of common ancestors; (b) a common language, not necessarily peculiar to the group; (c) a common literature peculiar to the group; (d) a common religion different from neighbouring groups or the general community; and (e) being a minority, or an oppressed or dominant group within a larger community.
The definition may include converts and exclude apostates. Provided a person who joins the group feels himself to be a member of it and is accepted by other members, then he is, for the purposes of the law, a member.
By this definition, the Sikhs constituted a racial group. Gipsies are a racial group (Commission for Racial Equality v Dutton [1989] QB 783, [1989] 1 All ER 306, CA); as are Jews (King-Ansell v Police [1979] 2 NZLR 531, NZ CA; Seide v Gillette Industries Ltd [1980] IRLR 427, EAT).
English-speaking inhabitants of Wales do not constitute a racial group; the difference in language alone is not sufficient to distinguish them from the Welsh-speaking inhabitants: Gwynedd County Council v Jones [1986] ICR 833, EAT.
Muslims are not a racial group, but a group defined by religion: Nyazi v Rymans Ltd (10 May 1988, unreported) EAT/6/88 (Transcript).
Rastafarians lack a sufficiently long shared history to be a racial group; and the Employment Appeal Tribunal also doubted whether they had a sufficient cultural tradition: Crown Suppliers (Property Services Agency) v Dawkins [1991] ICR 583, EAT; affd [1993] ICR 517, CA.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<best regards
wit
There are four women who sacred me
before I said my prayersMelanie Philips
Fannie Craddock
Deborah Meadon
Emma Thompsonthese are all intelligent women right
and one can mash up little green men potatoesWit
good to see you weighing in
with a finely tuned fiber optic response.
I cannot fault your precedent
but one heavyweight to another
English legal precedent
has been re-written by the bankers and
all case law is now in receivership
anything goes,
Blar started it…sittin’ on the dock of a bay
watchin my footsie roll awayInteresting stuff wit and thanks for the input ..
The two essential characteristics are: (1) a long shared history, of which the group is conscious as distinguishing it from other groups, and the memory of which it keeps alive; and (2) a cultural tradition of its own, including family and social occasions and manners, often, but not necessarily associated with religious observance.
.. how black Africans and white Russians can be lumped together as a racial group, apart from their own ethnic group, geographical location and history, seems to require quite a bit of imagination and lateral thinking. It also contradicts the interpretation that Muslims are not, because they are in exactly the same boat.
Extract from Hansard – Commons Debate On Gaza – 15 Jan 2009
Sir Gerald Kaufman (Manchester, Gorton) (Lab): I was brought up as an orthodox Jew and a Zionist. On a shelf in our kitchen, there was a tin box for the Jewish National Fund, into which we put coins to help the pioneers building a Jewish presence in Palestine.
I first went to Israel in 1961 and I have been there since more times than I can count. I had family in Israel and have friends in Israel. One of them fought in the wars of 1956, 1967 and 1973 and was wounded in two of them. The tie clip that I am wearing is made from a campaign decoration awarded to him, which he presented to me.
I have known most of the Prime Ministers of Israel, starting with the founding Prime Minister David Ben-Gurion. Golda Meir was my friend, as was Yigal Allon, Deputy Prime Minister, who, as a general, won the Negev for Israel in the 1948 war of independence.
My parents came to Britain as refugees from Poland. Most of their families were subsequently murdered by the Nazis in the holocaust. My grandmother was ill in bed when the Nazis came to her home town of Staszow. A German soldier shot her dead in her bed.
My grandmother did not die to provide cover for Israeli soldiers murdering Palestinian grandmothers in Gaza. The current Israeli Government ruthlessly and cynically exploit the continuing guilt among gentiles over the slaughter of Jews in the holocaust as justification for their murder of Palestinians. The implication is that Jewish lives are precious, but the lives of Palestinians do not count.
On Sky News a few days ago, the spokeswoman for the Israeli army, Major Leibovich, was asked about the Israeli killing of, at that time, 800 Palestinians—the total is now 1,000. She replied instantly that
“500 of them were militants.”
That was the reply of a Nazi. I suppose that the Jews fighting for their lives in the Warsaw ghetto could have been dismissed as militants.
The Israeli Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni asserts that her Government will have no dealings with Hamas, because they are terrorists. Tzipi Livni’s father was Eitan Livni, chief operations officer of the terrorist Irgun Zvai Leumi, who organised the blowing-up of the King David hotel in Jerusalem, in which 91 victims were killed, including four Jews
Clivex, the subtlety is way beyond you…don’t bother mate
For someone who brought up Anne Frank as an issue relating to Israel at the start of this thread to claim that the race issue is not relevant is beyond belief
Pompete. That speech means nothing to me. Kaufman is refering back to the Hotel bombing? So what? We are dealing with the here and now. That is too difficult for you to understand clearly
Lets spell it out once again for the thick lefties
Israel will negoitiate with Hamas once it stops shelling israeli land and drops its commitment to abolish the israeli state (and jews "wherever they are"
Got it????
Pompete. That speech means nothing to me. Kaufman is refering back to the Hotel bombing? So what? We are dealing with the here and now……
Presumably therefore, clivex, we are to dismiss the Holocaust as irrelevant, because it is not “in the here and now”??
“As long as we’re talking shelf-life………………..” Bill Hicks 1985
It is not at all relevant to the current situation. Just as the TelAviv bombs arent
Israel is a state that he established and is clearly not going to be "wiped off" the map. Until Hamas acknowledge that pretty basic fact and accpet that they are going to live with it…then there is no common ground on which to negotiate. Just as negotiations with AQ would be laughable, because the gap between the civilised world and their beliefs is too wide
British ministers had to go into prisons to bring about peace in Northern Ireland. The Jews in the US and Isreal will have to negotiate with Hamas if they want peace.
Clivex, the subtlety is way beyond you…don’t bother mate
Pompete. That speech means nothing to me.
You just don’t get it do you Clive
The same could just as easily be said of you Pompete
Then again wouldn’t life be boring if we all aggreed all the time
Paul – I’ll tell you what I do get….
Within hours of Israel declaring a unilateral ceasefire Hamas were firing rockets into Israel. So, despite the all of the deaths, all of the destruction, all of those bombs from land, sea and air this military campaign has not worked.
The average Israeli is no safer now than they were 3 weeks ago.
Now I don’t know whether Clive is simply being obtuse but the idea that this continuing conflict can be resolved without reference to its historic context is simply a non-starter. Now, at this point please note: I make no comment on the historic context, who’s right and who’s wrong, who did this and who did that, that is for others to resolve.
As I’ve stated before, those of us opposed to this military campaign do so not because we are anti-Israeli or pro-Palestinian but because we believe it will not work.
Wrong again arent you? 100%
Hamas now knows that Gaza will be hammered if it strikes again.
I suspect Hamas is divided now. Where is the leadership? The lack of, is a clear sign all is not well.
Clive, the difference between me and you is I would be delighted to be 100% wrong.
I accept you were right along and as you claim Hamas are no longer a threat to Israel and the average Israeli is now safer than they were 3 weeks ago. Well done for getting it 100% correct the people of Israel and Gaza can now look forward to a long and lasting peace.
As you well know, Hamas is still a big threat but a clearly subdued one. How this progresses is in their hands now. My feeling is that for all the immediate anger that many palestinians will be feeling at this present time, it will be very hard for them to realistically get away from a more sober judgement on those who provoked the action and they will not be wishing to see the same again.
The biggest problem with the Palestinians, which no-one has mentioned yet, is this.
Under Yasser Arafat they formed a government and were given a shed load of money to make things work for them. What they actually did, was fail to form a proper government, was overwhelmed by corruption and failed to control the militias. It doesn’t excuse the Isrealis, but I don’t see a way forward for the Palestinians.
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