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I have to say you really do make me laugh Firefox.
You are the one who slags off and attacks "the media" at every conceivable opportunity, accusing them of having hidden agendas – yet as soon as something is reported that happens to fit in with your particular slanted view of life you happily accept it without question – how strange.
Are there not double standards at work here?
Dont reinvent what i said. I stated WMD as you well know, which is not exclusively nuclear. In fact i pointed out to you pretty quickly (because i had to FFS) that biological and chemical weapons could easily be on Hamas’s agenda.
For the record, this is what you said, clivex:
"You dont understand even the basics of what these weapons mean. chemical and biological weapans can be used on a limited scale. As can Nuclear to some extent"
Chemical and Biological I’ll give you – in fact, I didn’t dispute it first time round – but there is no way that a nuclear weapon could be used against Israel, and not have a direct impact on Palestinian lives. Even a ‘dirty bomb’ rather than a thermo-nuclear device, would affect Palestinian’s in exactly the same way it would Israeli’s………so no a "nuclear weapon" could not be used on "a limited scale" that targeted only Israeli’s……..not whilst the laws of physics remain as they are.
Regarding Hamas’ desire to obtain these weapons, you suggested that this was "the next obvious step", with absolutely no proof whatsoever to back-up such a statement, other than your own prejudices. It’s easy to see why you admire the paranoid, screeching, drivel that Melanie Phillips trots out on a regular basis – she is the queen of the baseless supposition.
There seems to be some misunderstanding of biological and chemical weapons. Something as simple as a deseased animal in a water supply is a biological weapon, and weapons like Anthrax (Biological) and Mustard Gas (Chemical) etc can be made by anyone with the right education (and the right sympathies to your cause). This is why there was so much panic regarding anthrax envelopes, and is also why the MOD has been promoting innoculations to combat anthrax.
Whilst I do not morally agree with Israels methods, and can certainly understand why the west are keen to distance themselves from them, it will be interesting to see how they actually work. The Muslim terrorist problem is anarchic, and can be warped to appear morally just from the right prospective (my father always used to say "if you preach hate, you will always find ears to listen" and there seems to be little done from within their communities to actually defeat the problem.
In a situation of anarchy, fear is what establishes a pecking order, and what fear can be worse than annihilation? The war on terror is not succeeding by more humanitarian methods, because such methods are exploitable to an army that you cant see, and are thus not accountable. Israel’s curret methods are methods that suggest "we dont give a toss about wiping you off the face of the earth", and in a war of attrition Israel will win.
Israel are our friend in the middle east, but one who we keep a watchful eye on, as they are a serious and somewhat unguageable military force. America dont really want a war with Israel and Britain certainly doesnt, so the stance of condemning their actions whilst appearing as a mediator is probably all we will see. We would probably be targeted by the palestinians if we were to try and defend them.
I would be very wary of anything I see in the media and especially on the BBC, I grew up in Northern Ireland and know fine well that what you hear is what they want you to hear, and how they want you to hear it. Not only that but propaganda is far from rocket science.
It is trully terrible to see women and children killed, but at the same time it is good to see muslim extremists begging for support, some progress may come from this perhaps. Time will tell, hopefully sooner rather than later.
Good post Bulwark, informed and one of the few that have attempted to put any context on the issue that we are discussing.
As to the proportionality of the response, what do you suggest the IDF do? Go in with pea shooters?
I would like to see proportional use of force. Tactical strikes using helicopters, targetting the launch sites and the places where the rockets are fired from.
The strangest thing about war in the Middle East, is how some people presented with all of the facts, always deem that everyone is lying except the Isrealis .. news channels, Red Cross, the UN, everyone.
As to the proportionality of the response, what do you suggest the IDF do? Go in with pea shooters?
I would like to see proportional use of force. Tactical strikes using helicopters, targetting the launch sites and the places where the rockets are fired from.
The strangest thing about war in the Middle East, is how some people presented with all of the facts, always deem that everyone is lying except the Isrealis .. news channels, Red Cross, the UN, everyone.
Re your first paragraph if that happens you and your ilk will be the first to complain that innocent civilians are injured. The rockets, generally, are being launched from schools and homes.
Re your second paragraph – where, in this thread, is it "always deem that everyone is lying except the Isrealis .. news channels, Red Cross, the UN, everyone." I certainly hav enot accused anyone pf lying.
I would like to see proportional use of force. Tactical strikes using helicopters, targetting the launch sites and the places where the rockets are fired from.
What would you do Dave if the rockets are being fired from domestic and public sector accommodation – homes, apartments, schools, refugee camps?
A good post by Bulwark, though I think the "If you preach hate…." part is too simplistic myself.
It suggests that any grievance held by Palestinians is based more on ideology or indoctrination, rather than the very real (imo) persecution they have been subjected to for years.
The Palestinian people have very real grievances Grass. In an effort to address those grievances, I repeat, at Taba their dictator was offered 97% of the pre 1967 West Bank, sovereignty over Eastern Jerusalem, right of return for refugees with family still in Israel and a 35 billion dollar compensation package for refugees returning to the new Palestinian State.
He did not accept that offer nor did he offer a counter proposal.
….. rather than the very real (imo) persecution they have been subjected to for years.
Let me ask you, have you actually been out there or are you basing your opinion on what you read in the media?
I have never been to Israel, Paul, but please don’t don’t talk down to me (your post comes across this way) as if I’m a sponge for whatever the media decide to report.
I am quite independent of thought, thank you very much, and any opinions I hold are mine alone, and based on information I have been able to gather from a wide variety of sources, melded with my own personal sense of right and wrong.
You have self-evidently visited Israel on a number of occassions. Is it your position that there is no persecution of Palestinians? And please note that "persecution" covers a lot of ground, and I dopn’t mean it in a narrow sense.
All that aside, your post veers towards dismissing the arguments of anyone who has not visited the Holy Land – and I think that such a move would be erroneous, and verging on pomposity, to be honest.
I’ve never been to Afghanistan, but I’m reasonably confident that the Taliban are a shower of backward, medieval fu*ckwits. I’ve never been to Zimbabwe, but I’m reasonably confident that Mugabe is a dictator who ruthlessly quells dissent with violence.
Or am I horribly mistaken in both cases, because I see it at such a remove?
I have never been to Israel, Paul, but please don’t don’t talk down to me (your post comes across this way) as if I’m a sponge for whatever the media decide to report.
I am quite independent of thought, thank you very much, and any opinions I hold are mine alone, and based on information I have been able to gather from a wide variety of sources, melded with my own personal sense of right and wrong.
You have self-evidently visited Israel on a number of occassions. Is it your position that there is no persecution of Palestinians? And please note that "persecution" covers a lot of ground, and I dopn’t mean it in a narrow sense.
All that aside, your post veers towards dismissing the arguments of anyone who has not visited the Holy Land – and I think that such a move would be erroneous, and verging on pomposity, to be honest.
I’ve never been to Afghanistan, but I’m reasonably confident that the Taliban are a shower of backward, medieval fu*ckwits. I’ve never been to Zimbabwe, but I’m reasonably confident that Mugabe is a dictator who ruthlessly quells dissent with violence.
Or am I horribly mistaken in both cases, because I see it at such a remove?
Apologies if you have the impression I am talking down to you, that certainly was not my intention.
The point I was attempting to make, somewhat clumsily, is that someone who has been out there would have a first hand perspective of what the situation is like out there from both sides. Anyone who has spent time in Israel would see the genuine concern the average Israeli in the street has and it does go some way to explain the Israeli culture and mentality.
I would never say there is no persecution of Palestinians and yes they do have a difficult life in Israel “proper” and are viewed with suspicion. However the suspicion is based on what has gone on before.
To give an analogy – in the UK and more so in the US, any middle Eastern looking travellers, especially with backpacks, are looked at with suspicion either with sideway glances or, sometimes, direct hostility. Now take that and amplify the suspicion tenfold and that is how everyday life is in Israel.
The IDF never err on the side of caution if they are suspicious of anything they investigate and “Palestinians” are frequently subjected to “stop and search”. However the security (I’m loath to use the word) paranoia in Israel should not be underestimated and suspicion is not wholly confined to Palestinians.
On my first visit to Israel I was unaware of the security sensitivities and I fell foul of the IDF and was taken away at gunpoint. However once the situation was clarified I fully understood why they took the action they did and I was certainly forewarned for future visits. However I also accepted that security was paramount and me briefly crap*ing myself was nothing to the wider picture.
“…have you ever been there?”
Generally, I would associate this type of question with those that know their losing the argument. Not, that I would level that at you Paul, with your open mind and all.
On the point of your open mind have you considered that those of us that oppose this use of excessive force don’t do so because were anti-Israel or pro-Palestinian. But, rather, because we believe it simply won’t work and the average Israeli will be no safer after all this than they were before.
Similarly I could put to you that when it is convenient for your argument the media must never be believed at face value, but when it suits you everything they say is to be believed.
Would you care to give an example?
Some rockets were launched from South Lebanon into Israel yesterday. Are we to believe these news reports at face value? Or were they the work of undercover Mossad agents attempting to divert attention form the high profile atrocities occuring in the Gaza strip?
Who knows? We all have our own views don’t we?
Apologies if you have the impression I am talking down to you, that certainly was not my intention.
No worries, Paul – I didn’t think you were, but thought I’d get clarification!
So the question AGAIN is…..What should Israel do?
AGAIN….Israel at Taba offered the Palestinian dictator in 2001 97% of the Pre 1967 West Bank, sovereignty over Eastern Jerusalem, right of return for refugees with family in Israel and a 35 billion dollar compensation package for refugees who would return to the new Palestinian State and he turned it down, with no counter proposal.
What else should Israel do??….PLEASE!!
“…have you ever been there?”
Generally, I would associate this type of question with those that know their losing the argument.
I refer you to the reply I made to Grasshopper.
On the point of your open mind have you considered that those of us that oppose this use of excessive force don’t do so because were anti-Israel or pro-Palestinian. But, rather, because we believe it simply won’t work and the average Israeli will be no safer after all this than they were before.
It is easy to talk about open minds when you are detached from a situation. However when a situation is one that is, for want of a better expression, "close to your heart" and something about which you have passionate feelings, it is more difficult to show objectivity.
I can see the stance and arguments the "neutrals" are making – in most things in life I do try to see and understand both sides – as I hope I demonstrate in most of my postings.
However there are times when that marvellous human trait "emotion" comes into play.
Of course it is terrible that innocent civilians are killed, children are orphaned and as a decent human being (and that is what I hope I am) I do not like seeing it happen and, yes, it is distressing. But it is equally distressing to see people living in constant fear on both sides.
Unfortunately life is not some cotton candy fairy story and for all his professed intellectual and moral superiority mankind is actually quite a nasty horrible species. The species also has a built in tendency for self preservation and that tendency can manifest itself in extreme ways – sometimes even resulting in pressing the “self destruct” button.
The “easy” solution is to lock the so called leaders in a room and bang their heads together – like most deep festering conflicts however feeling are so deep and positions so entrenched it is almost impossible to find a solution to this terrible conflict. Goodness knows I have questions the absurdity of this situation many times in the past and so have many others with a far greater intellect than me.
Perhaps rather than exacerbating the situation here we should be looking at ways this situation could be resolved because it certainly needs something doing.
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