July 25, 2006 at 23:00 #4262
Is the bombing of Beriut justified as a part of the war on terror and the will it bring peace to the Middle East ?
I think not .. and I’d like to see Isreal subjected to UN sanctions, including an international arms embargo.
Collectively punishing a whole country for the sake of a few bandits is unacceptable, why aren’t our government doing something about it ?July 26, 2006 at 07:42 #101872
Fair enough but what about everyone else .. I would have thought that the French and the Jerries would be opposed to this sort of barbarism.July 26, 2006 at 13:09 #101873FlatSeasonLoverMember
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Dave Jay I agree, Israel should be punished; i wonder what would happen if France bombed all our bridges across the Thames?July 27, 2006 at 13:48 #101875
i wonder what would happen if France bombed all our bridges across the Thames?<br>
If a TERRORIST organisation bombed London from France, then the FRENCH would crack down on the terrorists – end of problem.<br>However, translate that scenario to Israel/Lebanon. When Hezbollah bomb Israel from the Lebanon, the Lebanese cannot stop them, so what would you have Israel do? Just sit back and take it?<br>The Israelis are in a no-win situation. In order to stop Hezbollah they have to attack them in Lebanon. The "ultra-brave", "noble" "freedom-fighting", "honourable", "heroic" sh*t that is Hezbollah deliberately base their men and ordnance in the midst of civilians, near schools and hospitals, knowing that Israeli strikes will inevitably kill civilians. This in turn creates great footage for news crews and the anti-Israeli brigade and it also adds another generation of misguided arab youth into the arms of the Hezbollah nutters.<br>When will the British media and many in British politics wake up to the fact that Iran/Syria/Hezbollah and the dark-age, Islamic religious nutters are the enemy – not just of Israel but also of Arabs and what we call the civilised world?<br>But hey, let’s not worry too much, after all, Margaret Beckett is our Foreign Secretary.July 27, 2006 at 17:16 #101879
Destroying the infra-structure of a whole country to gat at a few bandits in a specific region of that country does not make any sense to me.
Unless, as in the case of Iraq there is good money to be made cleaning up the mess afterwards .. <br>:cheesy:July 27, 2006 at 19:17 #101880
I could agree that Israel’s response might be deemed over-the-top. <br>However, whilst it’s possible that Israel had a covert game-plan for escalation it’s just as possible and just as likely that Hezbollah/Iran/Syria wanted an escalation and have damned well made sure they got it.<br>Whatever the (deeper) motives of the protagonists in this, it seems to me that the biggest stumbling block to the well-being of the average Palestinian/Lebanese/ Arab is not the Israelis or the West, but the mad-mullahs /Arafatist (if there is such a word) towel-heads. Rather like Arthur Scargill being the worst thing to happen to the miners. The enemies of Islam are some of the Muslims themselves.July 27, 2006 at 20:03 #101882
I think the life of an Arab is worth less than the life of a Westerner in the eyes of the Powers. I used to believe that Arabs fell in to two categories ..
1. Oiled Arabs <br>2. Oil-less Arabs
.. and category two was worh less than category one, I have since changed this view with the invasion/occupation of Iraq and the carpet bombing of Beriut.
In answer to your question Grass, I reckon Isreal is playing a long game here. Lebanon was on the way up and becoming a more stable and prosperous country for it. It can be no accident that Isreal has decided to de-stabalise this country and maintain its own position as the regional super-power.July 27, 2006 at 20:47 #101884
In my (admittedly unqualified opinion), when a terrorist organisation has the support of a majority or even a sizeable minority within a given community, there can be no military solution. Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â You can’t bomb Hezbollah into submission, it will simply be resupplied once the bombing stops and there will be no shortage of recruits amongst the relatives and friends of those killed in the Israeli attacks. A ground invasion simply results in a prolonged occupation (since it is difficult to withdraw when there is no clear victory point and any withdrawal will look like a defeat). The only way is the long tortuous road of attempting once again to negotiate with the moderates (who are largely drowned out when the shelling starts) and slowly isolate the extremists.
I think there can be a military solution to Al Quaeda, since it is an internationalist (albeit franchised) organisation, not rooted in any particular community. Similarly, the various left wing groups in Germany and Italy in the 1970s lacked any popular support and could be picked off. Hezbollah, Hamas, Eta and the IRA drew or draw their support from one community who see them, for whatever reason, as the only force who stands up for them. This is why the notion of a ‘war on terror’ is so fatuous. A war on Al Quaeda, no problem. A war on all terrorist organisations everywhere? It can never be won.
Negotiation is the only solution. It needs brave politicians on both sides to take risks. Ordering kidnaps, rocket attacks and retaliation isn’t politically brave, that’s the easiest thing to do. It might also involve Israel for a period of time refusing to retaliate in the face of terrorist attacks. That asks a hell of a lot of politicians and people. But retaliation has been the pattern for a very long time and it doesn’t seem to be working.
Of course, it would help if the US at least attempted to appear to be neutral.
(Edited by Aranalde at 9:48 pm on July 27, 2006)<br>
(Edited by Aranalde at 9:49 pm on July 27, 2006)July 27, 2006 at 21:21 #101885
Not sure that I see what your saying Dave… why would Israel want to destabalise an up-and-coming country? Surely it is the poverty-ravaged areas in the region that are most vulnerable to terrorists and often become breeding grounds for militant groups whose stated aim is to destroy Israel…<br> trackside528 Posted on 9:19 pm on July 27, 2006
Suppose Lebanon were to become stable and prosperous and say in 20 years time they voted in a government that was anti-Isreal and in that 20 years Isreal’s military domination of the region was then equalled by Lebanon’s and they started to ask Isreal to release political prisoners from jails where they are currently doing a Nelson Mandela ?? And to stop bombing refugee camps, or else ??
It is in Isreals interests to have no regional equal who could deal out the death and destruction on the same scale that they could. I dont think that they ever plan to negotiate or be reasonable, a bit like the Yanks.July 28, 2006 at 19:31 #101886
Turned my radio off in disgust listening to the Bush-Blair show this evening on the way home from work. They seem to think the root cause of all the problems in the middle east is an international conspiracy amongst dozens of terrorist groups (including the Chechen groups apparently) who are all motivated by just one thing – the desire to take our freedom. Do they really believe this stuff or have they just worked very hard to make themselves believe it – like the best actors do. Blair then brought Algeria into it, implying that the thousands of people who died there before 9/11 was the result of this same international conspiracy. Not saying the Islamist groups are blameless, but the brutal regime that cancelled legitimate elections and was supported by France and er… the USA might also have a drop or two of blood on their hands.
I am no supporter of Hezbollah or Al Quaeda, or for that matter the IRA or Eta. But to suggest that all terrorist groups essentially want the same thing – to take our freedom – is surely nonsense.
I am no expert, but as a former Blair supporter, I just can’t believe he is spouting this stuff. Surely, the biggest single cause of tension and conflict in the middle east is the continued failure of the Israelis/Palestinians/International Community to establish a viable Palestinian State. Hezbollah et al may want the destruction of Israel, but most Palestinians, Lebanese and Muslims around the globe want to see the Palestinians have their own state. Just as the IRA wanted a United Ireland but most Catholics in Northern Ireland just wanted equal rights and access to jobs and power. When they got those things, IRA support began to dwindle. That isn’t to say there won’t be a hangover and Hamas etc. may find the transition from war to peace a painful one, as the various groups in Northern Ireland have done. But surely that should be the main focus of the Bush/Blair alliance.
Give the Palestinians a state, help them to build up credible police and armed forces and surely that will be the beginning of the end of Hezbollah or at least their military wing.
Al Quaeda is a different matter and the tragedy of all this is that the world could unite behind a ‘War against Al Quaeda’ but instead we are offered a ‘War against Terrorism’ and a ‘Fight for Freedom’.
Apologies for rambling on and repeating myself. I’m sure there are many on here with more qualifications to talk about the situation, but I was so angry driving home, it was either rant on here or find someone else’s cat to kick, since I don’t have one myself. I could swap the word ‘cat’ for ‘poodle’ and come up with some clever little analogy with the political situation in the middle east, but I don’t have the energy.July 28, 2006 at 20:14 #101888
It get me like that every now and then Aranalde .. it feels like your intelligence is being constantly insulted by morons who are remote enough from real people not to be told to shut it!
I bet Bush never mentioned his latest foriegn policy catastrohpe in Somalia.July 28, 2006 at 20:39 #101889
I wasn’t aware of the Somalia thing. What have they been up to now?July 29, 2006 at 16:36 #101890
The Yanks have been supporting the incumbent Warlords who were running Somalia on the lines of a feudal state. These Warlords have recently been defeated by the Islamist Militia who are in the process of imposing Islamic Law on the population. <br>Read All About it !!July 30, 2006 at 10:36 #101891
An interesting piece Dave. I’m sure the people of Somalia are cock-a-hoop that they are now under the control of a taliban-like regime.<br>July 30, 2006 at 10:55 #101893
I suppose they prefer it to what went on previously insomniac .. the main attraction seems to be the Islamic Courts. Having some sort of law and order seems to be better than none at all.
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